[quote]Originally posted by Chris Byler:
But you _can't_ switch to Order-3 with S&A. It requires Turmoil-1 or greater.
Right. But you certainly don't have to take turmoil 3, sloth 3, cold 3, death 3 and an almost-no-admin castle just to dump all those points into a VQ. Try it. Fire it up. When I did, the income of my capital was 89. And that will be decreasing each turn. (shudders) The idea that you can afford a 250 gold Celestial Master every turn from turn 4 or 5 on is ludicrous with such a setup, unless you are counting on massive amounts of income from the turmoil 3/luck 3 combo - and that is wishful thinking from the tests I've made. As Cainehill rightly pointed out, you're just as likely to lose your temple on turn 2 with that setup - and then how long will it be before you recruit a single CM?
If S&A is weak, it is probably (IMO) a symptom of order still being worth more than its point cost, and order needs to be nerfed again; or turmoil is too risky because of catastrophic events even with a strong luck scale, and more catastrophes need to require luck 0 or less, 1 or less, 2 or less. (It is of course still possible for the followers of a lucky god to be struck by catastrophes - but only by the active malevolence of a hostile god or his people, not by chance which is ruled by their own god.) Their military isn't that much worse than base TC, and their mages are better, plus they have the demon summons.
Order is certainly still the most valuable scale, as it has the most effect on income, as well as acting as a buffer against catastrophe. But I don't think the fact that order is the most valuable scale makes the turmoil races unplayable. But neither do I think that having to take some turmoil is a good reason to savage your economy completely.
I apparently rate the Imperial troops more highly than you do. The loss of them does make me think of the S&A military as being much worse than that of the standard theme. But I think that is compensated by the mages. I agree that the S&A mages are better - some of the best in the game - which is why I would prefer to have enough gold to recruit some
While the demons are nice, it isn't clear to me that they are better than the Celestial Soldiers available to base TC.