[Starhawk]

Well El_Phil that's a narrow viewpoint obviously. Beyond garunteed jobs there's medical care far in advance of anything we could imagine that is open for everyone including life extending processes that add centuries to the human life span.

A true sense of community, clean streets, relatively crime free society, equal chances for everyone to excell even those who are not as physically capable as the "normal" populace have a place in society.
Mentally incapable people are looked after in state run facilities that try to discover cures for whatever caused the mental illness and that treat their patients like human beings.

A strong military that has only rarely ever been used against the population of an Icaran province/world.

The list goes on and BTW we are all "indoctrinated since birth" sure not to "Love the state" but to what our culture and society consider acceptable. We are all "bred" to our societies and Icarans are no different they are just raised to beleive in their government and in community over self.

Oh and BTW I would not call a society that views individuals as less important then the whole anything but NORMAL, face it the USA, EU, and just about any other country I could think of would frag you in a heartbeat to save the lives of more people. The Icaran government just comes streight up and says "look if we have to sacrifice two thousand people to save two hundred thousand we will and you don't get to question that."

Like I said people in the west these days are so self centered they can't view a society that would raise them to beleive that though on an individual level they may be special that pales in comparison to the lives of ten others. Face it most westerners these days would rather watch five people die then sacrifice their own life to save those five.

An Icaran would just be raised to respond to the instinct of saving others over their own life, that includes whole cities which may be sacrificed to save the nation.


And what is Utopia anyway? We would call Utopia a place where we get our greed fulfilled and nothing less, Utopia to us is where there is:
No Pain
No illness
No sacrifice
All the money we want
All the women we want (or men if your a woman)
Being able to do whatever we want whenever we want no matter the effect on others.
Everybody loves us
Everybody likes us
Everyone does what we want.

So in that case what is Utopia but the utter lack of self control and the utter indulgance of greed and arrogance?

Do you get what I'm saying here El_Phil? They are not Utopia but they would view a Utopia as what I just described.
The Icarans suffer from few illnesses they are all raised to be a community and beleive that their fellow citizens are their fellow NEIGHBORS no matter how far away they live in the Empire.
They live extremely long lives that are mostly good (hell they have a standard of living that makes the US look 3rd world),
And what's the price? Loyalty to the government, loyalty to your countrymen and being raised to belive that it is only right for YOU to be less important then OTHERS of more numbers.