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Old June 9th, 2006, 08:53 AM
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Default Re: Panzergrenadiers

I'm missing some direct references to the sources used for http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com. He does have a bibliography of sorts, but you cannot tell where exactly he got the specific information from.
Secondly, since at least some of the sources he uses states the specific KStN number, and since he apparently have checked some of the originals as well, he could have made proper references to the actul KStN. That would make it much easier to actually check the information.
Also, his dates are very vague - "circa late 1943" doesn't tell you much.
Actually, some of the pages he refer to in his bibliography have better information IMO.

The reality of German organisation was that a number of different KStN made for each type of unit as the war progressed and individual units were adopting those when ordered to. So you could have many older KStN still in effect while new ones were issued. Furthermore, the could be severel different but contemporary KStN for the same type of unit in operation at one time. The point is that there is not necessarily one particular organisation valid for one particular period.

As for translating the actual KStN to winSPWW2 OOBs, designers have made abstractions. For example combining the different elements of a company HQ into one unit or distributing some of companys heavy arms to the platoon organisation etc. That is a process that have been going on for 8 years with various people working on the OOBs. Some of those doing the work have had access to some very good sources that easily surpasses what you can dig up on badly referenced websites.

I think most people can appreciate that those involved in the game gets slightly pissed off when someone claims the game to be wrong because he found an unreferenced internet site saying somthing different than the game OOB, when the OOB designer have spent hours carefully trying to convert the data from the actual KStN or TO&E*.

Not to mention the fact that limitations of the game engine sometimes forces the OOB designer to make abstractions that doesn't make any sense to the untrained eye. Or may in fact not make sense any longer because the game engine have been improved.

It is by no means trivial - not even for people who have worked on OOB design and played the game for years - to figure out exactly what KStN a specific unit in the OOBs are supposed to represent.

You can of course simply decide that the game is wrong and then go fix whatever the problem is in MobHack. No problem.

But if you want to make a case that some unit needs fixing by the game designers, then you should at least have the respect for their work by stating you case properly.
If, as a playtester, I wanted a particular German tank formation in the game, I'd check all the relevant formations in the German OOB to see whether the formation I had in mind may actually exist somewhere in the OOB. If not, then I tried to figure out what those formations in the game was intended to represent. Then I tried to figure out whether the formation I wanted should in fact be a change to an existing formation or whether a new formation was needed. Then I took a cup of coffe (or a beer) and thought a bit about whether the change was actually suffciently significant to bother busy people with.
If so, then I'd present my case to the designers, including the relevant references.

If you do that, then you will have a much better chance of getting your grievances listened to and perhaps introduced in the game. You will also provide a much better basis for discussion of the changes.

Claus B

* Of course, many country OOBs and units have been created on available, but sketchy information. But if you have something better to offer, you should still do the work and make the proper argument.

PS: A good site for German KStN information is http://chrito.users1.50megs.com/kstn/okh/okhmain.htm that tries to reproduce the actual KStN. It is not without errors, but at least you know exactly what you are looking at.
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