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Blitz said:
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You're right that LE Mictlan was the main reason for the Dagon nerf. However, I think he is hardly a shabby pretender now, a great turn 2 expander with good prot, fear, and easy-to-acquire-awe, and the slots to keep him relevant later in the game.
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Better to simply remove him from MIctan then IMO, as LA Atlantis cannot pay an extra 64 points and remain competitive. While there are other pretender choices, the Dagon is clearly the best W9 chassis for this nation, and as stated before, LA Atlantis... with no heroes to speak of, poor national troops outside the reasonably useful Arssartut, and basicly two-path magic. One of these paths is water, arguably the least-useful... and the other is death, with which LA Atlantis starts with only 1 per turn for a total of 4 gems. OVerall, this is a fairly weak nation with three things going for it... amphibiousness, some nice high-damage sacreds and free design points from a cold scale. Nerfing their best pretender takes too much away from an already questionably balanced nation.
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With the thoumaturgs, the problem was that their crazy levels of reanimation were (together with the great sacred troops) making the nation the juggernaut of ME, and greatly marginalizing the nation's normal national troops. The grand thoumaturgs actually weren't so bad as they were, being capital only, but the ones recruitable everywhere could just be scaled to insane levels. Providing troops, research, and great magic support (with nether darts) you could make a formidable nation even with no other recruitable unit. I probably would have left the grand ones as they were, but it I didn't want to leave a weird gap in available priest levels.
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Perhaps I haven't seen the same level of Thamaturg abuse that you have, although I do feel that the transition from national troops to summons is a natural progression. If you disagree, I suggest you at least restore the power of the Grand Thamaturgs, as they are now quite a bit less useful in the early game, without their very useful smite vs knights and such while expanding.
I've restored the Grand Thamaturg and Dagon for single-player, and hope you will do the same to your mod so I won't be unhappy playing them in MP anymore. We use your mod, it's exceptional.
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Both of your solutions seem fine balance-wise, I'm just not convinced that they would be thematic. The Dagon I feel especially adds spice to LE Mictlan. And I can't say I agree too much about LE Atlantis being so weak. I find the national units decent, and the best mages very durable and potent battle mages, Water may not be the best path, but it's not that bad either. At level 3 and above it is quite useful in battle with falling frost, and there things to spend gems on all thorough the game; winter wolves and claymen early, water queens later on, and very long term murdering winter. And all that aside, if I wanted to water bless them my choice would probably be an imprisoned son of the sea.
For the thoumaturgs... I suppose a solution might to make the lesser thoumaturgs capital only too, and give the cultist some death magic, then I could put the grands back as they were. However, I have a feeling people would overall find this approach even more annoying.
Anyway, I do appreciate the input, it's the kind of thing that really does help polish the mod.