[noname]

Pro-Spartan? Socrates fought the Spartans at Delium and Amphipolis and opposed the thirty tyrants which were pro-spartan. When Socrates was sent to get Leon of Salamis by the tyrants, he simply went home. This behavior does not look like that of a pro-spartan individual. As for public speaking, Plato said that philosophy was the only suitable rhetoric. As for the true image of Socrates... well, he left no writings, but both Plato and Xenophon seem to agree that Socrates was no enemy of democracy.

Socrates was even a part of a citizen's council which had to try some generals for failing to collect the bodies of the dead after battle, and the rest of the council wanted to try them as a single unit, rather than as individuals (the laws of Athens stated that each person must be tried individually .) Socrates was the only one who wanted to obey the democratic laws, even if it meant that he would be unpopular as a result. I find it hard to believe that Socrates and/or Plato were truly anti-democratic. Just look at some of these quotes:

"Because of the liberty which reigns there, they have a complete assortment of constitutions; and he who has a mind to establish a State, as we have been doing, must go to a democracy as he would to a bazaar at which they sell them, and pick out the one that suits him; then, when he has made his choice, he may found his State." -- The Republic

"The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." -- Plato

P.S. These forums are supposed to be about the game, not philosophy or history. While this conversation is all and good, it would be best if we could stick to the topic. I know this sounds odd, but it would be best if we let this tangent die off with this post.