[Tichy]

I didn't say that Socrates himself was pro-spartan or anti-democratic. He is presented in all of Plato's dialogues as acting on principles of justice that rise above any particular political interest. It's just that those who championed *him* had political interests, arguably pro-spartan. Members of Plato's family who are treated very gently in the dialogues (Charmides, Critias) were in the "thirty tyrants".

You're using Plato's Apology as your primary source for an account of Socrates' beliefs and actions here, and I'm arguing that Plato has his own motivations for using Socrates, with his reputation for sincerity and principled conduct, as his mouthpiece. It's rhetorically smart to claim that people with a reputation for rising above particular interests happen to agree with your particular interests. The Apology is likely closer to Socrates' own views than anything else in Plato's oeuvre, but it's still Plato's words.

Aside from this, it's obvious that Plato is no friend of democracy -- at least as practiced in Athens in his time. Read the rest of the Republic: Democracy is the second-worst kind of government, second only to tyranny. And look more closely at your long quote: We go to a democracy as to a bazaar, but then once we discover the best kind of state, we found it and run it. The ideal state Plato describes in the Republic is not democratic in the least, nor is the state he describes in the Laws. We should be ruled by those who know the Good, not by those who know how to persuade a crowd that will then go vote (hence the anti-sophist stance).

Now we could get into a discussion of just what Plato means by "democracy" and the form it took in Athens but that would be extending this thread even further in an un-game-like direction, wouldn't it? And since I like getting the last word, too, I'll also say we should really get back to talking about EA Arco.

So sorry for the continued thread derailment by a cranky philosopher. RRrrrt!CRASH.