[dogscoff]

Also an important thing to remember is I am writing a society that is slowly evolving as well,

That is an important thing, I'm glad you've taken it into consideration- not because i think the Icarans need to be changed, but because change is interesting and change is what drives storytelling.

For example the fact they consider their own citizens more valuable then other nations, well DUH every nation feels that way or else whenever a war started both sides would pillow fight for fear of hurting the OTHER guy's people.

Well yeah, but there are still certain standards to which we today expect other enemy's people to be treated. Now obviously your Icaransd would never have heard of the Geneva convention but the principles behind them- and the consequences in terms of morale, escalation and so when those standards aren't adhered to- would still apply.

The fact they respond to terror WITH terror is alien to us

Not alien at all. I've lost count of the amount of times in this thread I've had to stop myself making comparisons with Iraq. I think I'll just add this to the pile.

[quote]
want to think just because they are raised state-centric and community-centric they are all mindless drones[quote]

Perhaps not mindless drones, but certainly heavily indoctrinated with state progoganda. I would imagine a conversation with an average Icaran to be much like a conversation with a USSR-era Russian: Most of the time it would be like talking to anyone else, but when you get on to certain subjects, their opinions would seem oddly divorced from reality.

think about it how many "peaceful protests" turn into riots that kill people?

A very tiny percentage. What's more, a lot of those that do turn nasty do so because the police (under orders from the gov) provoke violence and then blame it on the protestors. It's a standard tactic.

But even so, I gladly accept the risk of rioting as a price to pay for the right to demonstrate. Freedoms almost always come with risks attached. Still, its irrelevant how *I* feel about it, the point I was trying to make is that it is another sign of a totalitarian regime, and as such the Icarans would not be welcomed everywhere. But we've covered that ground.

You also treat the draft as OMG HORRIBLE but there are nations today that have mandatory service

Actually, I would support some kind of national service (as long as everyone was offered a non-military option.) I think it's a good way to halp people appreciate their public services. The only times I mentioned the draft were (a) to point out that one section of society being exempt is likely to cause friction and (b) point out that if it were enacted on conquered people, then that would be unpopular among those people. It's one thing to be forced to serve in your own military, it's something else altogether to be forced into somebody else's.

As far as the sterilization goes, BFD there are countries today that impose severe penalties for having more then a certain number of children,

Yes there are. That doesn't make it right.

Also, and this is just me looking at realism again, are such measures really necessary? Population does have a way of balancing itself out, look at the falling birth rates in the world today in industrialised countries: As people become more wealthy and the cost of raising children increases, people have less children. They want to make money and travel and have fun and establish their careers before having kids, so that when they are ready they can provide all the modern comforts to their offspring. What comforts are available in Icaran society, and how long does it take to earn them? Maybe people would wait until they get their military service out of the way first, not wanting to have a child until a significnt risk of orphaning it has passed. Also, a person might be an adult at 13 or 16 the eyes of Icaran law, but would society really consider them ready for adulthood, when they have 200-odd years of fertility left to them? More on that later.

Obviously your long life spans make a difference, but even with 200 - 300 years of fertility, I don't find it unlikely that most couples would limit themselves to a handful of kids, especially with advanced, high-tech contraceptives that are less prone to failure(*) than the methods we use today. After all, with all that time, there's no rush. You could have one child and devote all your time and attention to it until it's well into adulthood - although this means the child would be without siblings of a similar age, with such long windows of fertility there's no reason why a child couldn't be born at the same time as scores of its cousins, uncles, aunts, nieces and nephews. Family members might even plan to get pregnant at the same time, so that the kids can grow up together.

There would be exceptions in either direction, of course, but an average of four or five kids per couple over 3 centuries doen't seem improbable- bear in mind that by the time you hit 250, you'll have more great grand children than you can count anyway, so you won't feel the need to have more of your own, you'll be happy sharing the your child-raising expertise with younger generations of parents.

(*) To be fair, I believe most of today's 'contraceptive failures' are down to user error rather than a fault in the actual technology, but user error is still something that could be countered with better technology.)

Also bear in mind that societies not facing immediate resource shortages tend to encourage higher birth rates: More people=more productivity. It's not as if your Icarans have only one world with limited resources to share between their entire population, like we do.

Just out of interest, regarding the state control of reigion and procreation, are these things derived from their links to today's China?

Something else that I find interesting about your Icarans is that they consider people adult at age 13. It seems strange that you've extended adulthood massively for your Icarans, and yet shortened childhood. Given the massively expanded lifespans, in conjunction with it being such a patriarchal society (patriarchal in the sense of deference to heirarchy and authority, not necessary in the mysoginistic sense), I find this a little strange. Most 40 years olds I know today would regard a 13 year old as immature, and that's in a very open-minded environment compared to, say, 100 years ago. How do you think a 240 year old would feel? Even if Icaran law says 13==adult, I think older Icarans would definitely treat people so young with a certain amount of condescension, and all but the most exceptional adults under the age of 40 would have difficulty getting people to take them seriously. Maybe there could be different 'levels' of adulthood, enforced by tradition rather than law, with 'coming of age' rites of passage at various stages through life/ life events (parenthood, grandparenthood, 25 years service in the military or some other job.)