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Deputy said:
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thatguy96 said:
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Deputy said:
Having a sniper rifle available months or even years before they were even produced may not mean much to guys moving masses of tanks around in the sim. But since this sim IS based on history, why purposely have the info incorrect? If sniper rifle data is meaningless, why even incorporate snipers into the sim?? It's the very DETAILS of the weapons and equipment that attracts lots of guys to this sim.
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The sniper rifle data is not meaningless. Its that small variations have such a negligible effect on the game that having anything other than a generic "sniper rifle" is more about name flavor than about stats. You could create every small arm you can think of and incorporate it in game, but the differences would be so small that it simply would not be worth it in the end. Furthermore, if you tried to make them all different you'd probably quickly find that it makes some inaccurately powerful because there isn't enough room to maneuver at this scale in the stats. Furthermore, remember that the training and relative skill of the marksman is not included in the stats for the sniper unit entirely, but in the stats for the weapon, and that the acc figures are as much a comment on the sniper's personal ability as the weapon's base accuracy.
Furthermore, do you have information that suggests that since there was no specific rifle that there were no snipers or marksman? I just don't know, but I think that would be much more of a case to modify the dates at which snipers can be bought than the existence of a type of rifle that it has already been suggested has little to no bearing on any specific type.
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Again,if you are only interested in manuvering around huge formations of tanks and troops, snipers aren't all that relevant. Snipers didn't enter into the picture in any quantity for the US until AFTER D-Day. As far as I can tell, pretty much every flavor of small arm HAS been included in the game. Although there are still some missing. Truck drivers and tank crews WERE armed with small arms like M3 Greaseguns and Carbines, not just a 1911A1 and a grenade. Heck, I doubt most truck drivers and tank crews HAD grenades with them unless they begged some from an Infantryman.
Were there "snipers" without sniper rifles? I would say NO. Snipers can fire out to ranges far greater than an ordinary rifleman. But they do that becasue of their rifle. Were there "marksman". Yes, most definitey. But being accurate with a rifle still doesn't make you a "sniper".
Here's my bottom line...the sniper rifles and snipers of Germany and Russia were probably the best in WW2. And the sim should represent that. Saying all sniper rifles and snipers are "equal" is like saying a Sherman tank is equal to a Tiger tank is equal to a T-34 is equal to a Churchill. Will snipers matter for those playing huge tank battles or human wave attacks? Of course not. But everyone DOESN'T play that type of battle in WinSPWW2.
If the sniper is that meaningless, just delete him and move on. Otherwise, let's try and get the OOB to at least reflect SOME kind of historical accuracy. You wouldn't want a Tiger tank to pop up in 1939 would you??? 
Dep
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Firstly, I'd like to say that the statement that "Snipers didn't enter into the picture in any quantity for the US until AFTER D-Day" seems to be confused by your assertion that the purpose built M1903A4 had been around since early 1943, and that you only speculate that there were no snipers using other types of rifles or basic infantry rifles before hand.
I fully disagree with your assertion that a sniper rifle makes a sniper. That just seem to make sense in my mind. A sniper is a sniper if he's treated as such regardless of the weapon he uses. Marine snipers in Vietnam used commercial Winchester Model 70s, or are you suggesting these weapons were specifically designed for unparalleled accuracy at some magic "sniper" range (ie, over 800-1000 yds)?
As for every flavor of small arms being included in the game, it is very far from being complete in my opinion. Those that are included are often included for name flavor only as I had asserted earlier. Generic pistol, shotgun, and sniper rifle weapons are in the OOBs, which already create a whole swath of modeled weapons, as does treating every Thompson the same way, and not including lesser known SMGs, or even suppressed SMGs (maybe that's worth a stat point somewhere). There simply is not enough room for variation in my mind to make these tweaks worth the effort, especially when there's nothing to suggest they have a noticeable effect on game play, and the game's cost calculator using its assumptions about what affects game play relative to cost usually agrees.
I've done a fair amount of OOB editing in the last two years and played around with all sorts of things, and when it comes to small arms, let me say that the only small arm I felt compelled to create was a fully-automatic shotgun, as different from the standard shotgun. I felt a reasonable HEK increase was warranted because of the fact that the weapon was no longer in the generic shotgun class. Beyond that, everything else has been for flavor. Saying that all sniper rifles are equal in terms of this game is no where near saying a jeep is equal to a tank which seems to be the extreme comparison you're looking for. You simply don't have that kind of flexibility if you try and make it fit with other existing game stats for all classes of weapons.
If you believe the Russian and German snipers were better up the exp in the formation or the stats of the unit. Trying to up their ability by mucking with the weapon stats will likely leave you disappointed and still complaining about the inability of them to perform better then their wannabe more accurate than usual American brethren. Most of my OOB work has been in creating specialist infantry, not more jacked up vehicles, and let me tell you this yields more definitive results than weapon stats. Militia using a my "assorted rifles" weapon, don't make use of the fact that it actually has better stats than the M16 weapon if their -10 exp and morale in their formations.
And lastly, you're still equating meaningless to inaccurate in your mind. The sniper is not meaningless, especially if the one comment from another user about them picking people of all over the place and being impossible to kill is at all true. They are most definitely an important factor in the game and do have a place. You seem to want to suggest that if it can't be 110% accurate then it should be nixed from the game. At that point, you might as well hack out all infantry units because of your assertion that all the small arms must have unique stats.