[NTJedi]

KermNelson said:
Hmm NT Jedi you seem to be saying everything a player can do the AI should be able to do: that to be “fair” we should have the same game capabilities. Unfortunately since the AI can’t think like a human player game builders rarely if ever make the player and AI equal. In fact usually there are several strong pluses for the AI so it’s strategic and tactical blunders don’t cause it to lose immediately. So the player and AI aren’t fairly balanced or ‘empowered’ to begin with.

Very very few PC_games are balanced between all players when the game starts, the closest games would be chess and checkers. Each PC_game has many random variables providing some opponents with stronger starting positions. Every game has either in-game options, windows_OS options or outside hacks which can provide changes during the game. When these changes alter an existing future for one opponent then the game's natural history has ended. In the case of DOM_3 using the save/reload to change an already decided future for an important battle(s) the game's natural history has ended... it's no longer a game where each opponent is battling for godhood because it's clear one opponent is controlling the future.
The same would be true if you had your own personal slot machine where no real money was being used and changed the results when losing a major bet.

KermNelson said:
The developer also knows the strengths and weaknesses of their game rules and units so they can code an extreme familiarity with the game that the novice player doesn’t possess. Therefore since obviously the game is not designed with ‘identical’ abilities on each side it would be ‘unfair’ by design if you insist on equal/identical abilities for player and AI.

As mentioned earlier, very few PC_games are balanced between all players at the start of a game. However there is a major difference between having a strong advantage and controlling the future! For any game the individual controlling the future will win(if he chooses) and thus the game is now within a controlled environment of the individual controlling the future.
EVERY GAME involves a risk of losing, thus if you remove the risk of losing by changing/controlling the future it's no longer a game and just a controlled environment.

KermNelson said:
As for documentation: the save/reload is a known feature. Many players are quite aware of its use. It is rare for developers to document all possible uses of all their features. ... You certainly haven’t proven none have done it and I’m not going to reread a few dozen manuals and pdfs I’ve got around my computer to cite them.

Of course save/reload is a known feature... hence if your computer crashes while playing the reload option prevents losing hours and hours of time. Unfortunately it's just as easy to use this great tool for cheating and thus allowing a player to control the future. The developers/publishers don't have time to list the hundreds or thousands of different ways it's possible to cheat within todays complex games.

KermNelson said:
On to talk about losing and defense:
While I’ve clearly stated I reduce the steepness of my learning curve and that I give myself a strong starting advantage, I’ve never said I didn’t play losing games or in tough defensive positions. I’ve lost lots of battles and fought in many tough defensive positions in games. MMORPGs as multiplayer and online games constantly strive to prevent cheating – while I certainly optimize my strategy and tactics for my personal enjoyment, I’ve never even tried to ‘cheat’ (do something that the online company: Microsoft (Turbine) or Sony would consider cheating.) I did have some very powerful tools and characters when I was part of a special test team for Turbine in AC but we were expected to optimize our time and accomplish certain goals in testing new patches (on a test server). I played other games on Microsoft’s multiplayer system including: Birth of the Federation (BotF – Star Trek) where I played games at least until I thought them hopeless versus the caliber of player I was playing and then I politely resigned and congratulated my opponents. Finally as long ago as the early 70’s I played chess both in high school and at a local chess club receiving a rating just over 1800. That included losing but it also included playing versus players that I resigned to before the end because I knew and respected their quality of play. It also included a few amazing comebacks when I felt the player could still be beat. I do the same in playing versus the AI in single player gaming.

As mentioned earlier, there's no need to use mods for providing yourself an advantage for the learning curve. If you place a topic on the main forum asking for an easy game without mods, you'll receive at least 5 good responses. Based on the past history you've mentioned I'm surprised you would even remotely consider providing yourself such a massive unbalanced advantage such as controlling the future via the save/reload for any game... unless you don't consider that current game a test of your skills and you are purposely controlling the environment for preparation of some other existing game or future game.

KermNelson said:
I simply already know when I start a new game that I want an advantage.

Tipping the scales to your advantage via mods or map edit commands is a smaller type of cheating depending on how much tipping was done. Controlling the future via save/relaod is a major type of cheating. Another sign using save/reload to change the future is cheating is because even 80,000 years from today no AI opponents will control an already decided future within a game.
Example:
The_Gameominions_505 ____Released: May19th___Year_82,008
Turn_45
Battle Results: You've killed the AI pretender and it's prophet after a 42_turn battle... wait it's changing the future upon next turn they will be alive again and your pretender and army will be dead.

KermNelson said:
Also after learning some games thoroughly I want to do some mindless exploration for fun sometimes and will start in a position that is probably impossible to lose. I play in my style for my enjoyment.

I do testing for a mod I'm developing, another type of game exploration. Playing for fun is why the gaming industry has exceeded the movie industry. Exploring and testing can be fun exercises. To start a game an actually consider the game a test of your skills means playing without controlling the future.

KermNelson said:
In competition with other players I never cheat and the existence and style of the other’s mind provides fascinating exploration of the game that I thoroughly enjoy even while losing.

It's hard for many to continue playing even in MP games, I frequently have read and seen players just toss in the towel after losing a major battle. As a result the games need substitutes or the nation is turned into an AI. Personally I've always fought to the bitter end during games unless someone was cheating or I was provided an unfair major disadvantage.

KermNelson said:
It’s also interesting that you impugn the idea of a ‘re-do.’ As a senior US Army Captain I went to Fort Leavenworth for a staff school called CAS3 (cubed), the school picked up the nickname “Re-Do” U because the US Army felt it was more important to have us senior captains redo our finished work so we could learn and perfect our skills.

Yes reloading to perfect skills can be important and fun, controlled environments are typically used for learning and perfecting skills.

KermNelson said:
(aside 2)
NT Jedi posted:
“You follow game code?? How would someone not follow game code?? The game's programming code cannot be changed.”

It depends on how you define ‘game code’. As early as the gold boxed series of AD&D games, certainly in Civ and MOO, I hexedited games. In the gold boxed games I examined the games files including the exe and find out which hexcodes were used for the various AD&D items. The writers literally input items in the order they were in the hardback AD&D books and so you could guess from known hexcode what other items’ hexcodes were. Experience points were also in hexcode so find your current exp pts in hex and change it to what you wanted. I found this exploration of the hexcode added fun and enjoyment to the gold box games I’d already beat. Also Paradox games like the EU series and Hearts of Iron series had savegame files in English that you could easily modify to change all sorts of conditions (these games also have cheat codes well documented in their game manuals.) Some players also did very elaborate mods including the “CORE” mods for Hearts of Iron. Hexcode is a form of code … was I following game code when I edited these games? Or was I changing the games code? Is editing a savegame OK while changing other gamefiles not OK?

If you edited game code to make the game easier then it's a type of cheating depending on how much you've tipped the game into your advantage. Editing any existing game to provide yourself an advantage is cheating... the greater the advantage the greater the cheating. Editing a game to workaround a bug or improve game performance/quality is not cheating since the risk of losing has not been tampered.

KermNelson said:

I've just checked EU/HOI manuals and arrggh! They don't show the cheatcodes. That's what I get for relying on memory. I got this sudden fact checking panic attack and I was wrong - no listed cheat codes even if they are in the gamecode.

Cheat codes exist because developers use them for testing the game, the cheat codes remain for two reasons. First it would take time to remove them which can be spent improving the game elsewhere. Second hardcore cheaters will hack into the game or find a friend to hack the game and develop the cheats.

KermNelson said:
pg 47 of Rome Total War manual:

"Load Game and Save Game allow you to save your position and reload it later (or even undo some terrible calamity by stepping back to an earlier game date, not that you'd ever cheat like this, oh no)."

While clearing labeling this tactic as a 'cheat' the humorous response (sarcasm) obviously indicates the manual's expectation of use for exactly this purpose.

On usable codes to change your stats in Neverwinter Nights manual (pg 171): gives a table of "Common Commands"

Some are: ModAge # or SetAge #, also a series ModSTR # thru ModCHA #, and SetSTR # thru SetCHA #, GiveXP #, GiveLevel #.

This is the D&D system so this allows the player to quite effectively change (cheat?) his character stats and level. There are other useful commands. My point being that some games do release in their manual cheatcodes and/or modcodes that can be used to radically change gamebalance.

Even the developers from Rome Total War state using the save/reload to undo a decided future is cheating... as I've been saying from the beginning. Their comment is sarcasm because they know SOME gamers will cheat, it's inevitable... but it's still cheating.