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Micah said:
K - The proof is in the pudding, as they say. You've got a total of 1 win vs 4 other opponents in a newbie game, whereas I think I've got a pretty solid track record of MP wins. You can present all of the misleading evidence you'd like, but at the end of the day you simply don't have the same level of understanding of the game as some of the MP vets, myself included.
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Interesting fallacy.
When I've played almost a hundred games and won just over 7% of them, do I get to dismiss people's facts like that too?
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Micah said:
Take, for example, your statement about fear. Pretenders are immune to it, at least from everything I've tested and seen. This is a clear-cut issue of game mechanics. They can and do rout when they are injured badly enough, or when they are part of a general army rout, but fear doesn't bother them. It's hard to truly grasp the subtleties of strategy decisions when you don't even grasp the game mechanics.
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You make a lot of assumptions, like assuming I was talking about the fear mechanic instead of the routing mechanic. I'll admit I wasn't clear.
From that you make assumptions about my ability which are not warranted, and you do so in an attempt to "win" the argument.
Here's my advice: if you are going to try to win an argument, do so on the merits and not by attempts to discredit your opponent. Personal attacks don't work, and they make you look like you don't have valid arguments to counter your opponent.
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Micah said:
Your statements about efficiency and general game flow are also flawed, although it is somewhat harder to prove, especially when you swap around your arguments. You said "And on a final note, are you seriously trying to tell me that Con4(Carpets of Flying) and Thaum3(Teleport) are not doable by turn 16 with Bogarus" and all of a sudden you start talking about having thaum-5, which is another 420RP, and Leeching Darkness, which is a D3 spell when you only have D1 mages. Sure, I guess you can communion together enough mages to get that to go off, but it's a pretty lousy idea in terms of efficiency. Plus you don't have S3 on the D starets without a 10% random, so you can't actually teleport in at that point.
Teleport ambushes and other magic can kill a pretender, it's true. Saying that's a liability is like saying having a queen is bad in chess because your opponent will be trying really hard to eliminate her. Resources are finite, and if he's aiming his magic at your pretender he's not aiming it at your other assets.
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Again, you make a lot of assumptions. You assume I'm talking about taking Starets into battle when I never actually said that. I said:
"Then you send your Eparchs into position for your first war. By then you have a second castle pumping out Masters of Names for great research, and when you meet your enemies around turn 17 or 19 you teleport in with powerful magic backing you up and if you were smart you now have those Eparch on Carpets of Flying with something interesting as guard."
One out of four Masters of Names can actually Teleport natively if they have the right picks, and the others can use items like Crystal Coins and boosters in their non-Astral Paths to cast bigger magics. Of course, bringing in an Occultist to use his native Death magic will mean that he'll walk or fly instead of boosting his Astral because it is not efficient without Starshine Skullcaps, but his Communion slaves (and Blood Slaves) can all be Teleported in.
Considering that I showed that a half-hearted game I played can get Thaum 3, Conj3, Evo5, and Con4 by Turn 20 (my mistake, it was not 21 in the test game I posted as I said earlier) means that by your very criteria a flippant comment about Teleporting in on Turn 17-19 with "powerful magic" is definitely within the realm of possibility. I'm sorry that I confused you and the issue by talking about how efficient it is to save research points by using the powerful magic in Thaumaturgy where someone had already invested points as per my example.
Of course, this example proves that instead of diverting points into Conj and Evo you could also spend the 820 points gained on something else like taking one of the Paths I talked about from 3 or 4 to 6, or picking different Paths at 3 and 5.
To summarize my points:
-Yes, an Awake SC is valuable right up until you contact an MP player who gets tired of you raiding their back provinces.
-Yes, the ten to twenty of gems they spend to kill your god are a real expenditure, but probably not worth hundreds of design points that you are paying for the privilege(and the equipment you'll lose when they do and which may actually mean that you lose more gems than them).
-Is it "necessary"? Clearly not considering your other strengths like smite armies, especially if you must sacrifice scales like Production or Growth.
-Is this the kind of discussion I like, but which clearly aggravates people to the point of personal attack? Clearly yes.
My apologies. I'll stop reading this thread so that I'm not tempted to post another response.