Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispedersen
Jim, I think you are unaware of the current status of US tax laws.
Simplifying it - a bit.
Suppose your income were 20,000. and you had kids. and you were below a poverty line. The government gives you a refund despite the fact that you have paid no taxes. A portion of this is called the Earned Income Tax Credit.
When you file your taxes, things like deductions and tax credits increase the size of your deduction.
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Tax credits do not just give you free money. There are two ways to reduce tax burden - deductions, which indirectly reduce taxes, by reducing taxable income - and credits, which are directly applied to the amount of taxes that you owe. YES, you can get a refund because of credits, but only up to the amount of money already deducted from your pay, for taxes, and in a case like this, ONLY from the amount deducted for FICA. So in my case, I could file taxes (again, I am below the -EXEMPT- line currently), but as I owe no taxes, I would receive nothing. McCain's plan would not do anything whatsoever to rectify my situation and help me get on the path to becoming a more overtly productive citizen again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrispedersen
Thirdly, as others have alluded you are comparing apples and rocks - but I suggest its more like spaceships and boogars. When americans think about health care, they think about going to the doctor of their choice, and getting cutting edge medical care.
Comparing that to another nations national health care really is like comparings space ships to boogars. Please do compare american health care to any second or third world country.
You might think that unfair - fine. Would you agree that UK would be an acceptable comparison?
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Well this seems like an odd argument. Money is money. The basic issue of who pays the money (whether us directly, our insurance company, or a decently organized governmental body), does not have any direct bearing on the quality of the product. Hell, we could have the FEMA people do our health care, and yes, I would be scared too. Or we could have the military organize it, and they would pour so much money into it ($600 stethoscopes, anyone?) that we couldn't help but smile.
But hey, I will bite. Let's compare our current health care system, in an unbiased manner, with say, the health care system in the UK. But wait! The
World Health Organization has already performed this task for us. In fact, they rated all countries in the entire world. I won't completely spam the forum by listing every nation, I'll just list from the top, until we get to the good old U S of A. Should be a short list..... right?
1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America
Oh, oops. I guess that was a wrong assumption. Apparently, according to the people who know more about these things than you and I put together, think that basically every nation that has instituted nationalized health care (and even some who haven't!) have better systems than we do.
Also, we spent over 15% of our total GDP on health care this past year. Many of the countries above us on the list, spent <10%. Now, if our GDP/capita is higher than most of them, wouldn't it stand to reason that we should be able to get better coverage than they do (at least, spending more, should get a better product, right?), while still paying LESS than we currently do.
And just for the record (
for you too, NTJedi), there is no reason that we couldn't adopt a sort of "half-stance" on the subject, where we simply guarantee a minimum level of coverage for all citizens. By taking care of basics (I've never once sat in a dentist's chair, in 33 years of my life, for example), we do not create as immense a burden on the taxpayers, nor responsibility for the agency in charge, in relation to the amount of benefit gained by the nation as a whole. If you would like, I can go and dig up the articles that I have read that illustrate how studies have looked into the correlation between basic health care needs, and lost days (or years!) of work under our current system. I can assure you now (but I'll find it again if you like), that the verdict was that providing a baseline amount of assistance to the uninsured, would far more than pay for itself in terms of productivity.
Also, since I mentioned the absence of a dentist in my life, let me point out another issue that this would solve. You see, I don't currently have any terrible health problems due to my teeth (I don't think!), however, I do have a few cavities that I am a bit worried about, that should be filled. I can't afford a dentist to do this relatively routine maintenance, however if one of my teeth abscesses, then whichever dental surgeon is unlucky enough to find me at their door, cannot refuse to treat me if the poison from that abscess could threaten my life (it's the law). BUT, bear in mind the actual cost of dealing with such a problem. Bear also in mind, that YOU (the universal you, meaning everyone who is indirectly impacted by the failures of our health care system) will ultimately pay for my treatment. How is this? It's simple enough, because you see, I can't afford medical care. I can't walk in on my own to receive it, but if they are obligated to save my life, they will do so, and they will bill me. And just because I receive a bill, doesn't mean that I magically also have money to pay it. So, it goes unpaid, it goes to collections, and that particular doctor is out several hundred dollars of income that he is entitled to. Now, the effect averages out, as most doctors (or hospitals) deal with this on an ongoing basis, it's the downside of being a lifegiver. However, this directly translates into higher costs, which may annoy you, but the real travesty is that it increases the costs of care for people who can barely afford it anyway.
Accounting for basic needs first, will bring the system closer to balance. Why can't we continue to pay our physicians more than other countries? Do you know how many people can get basic (and necessary) health care for the cost of one Stealth Bomber? I know, the "Stealth Bomber" argument is a bit trite by now, but the point is just a comparison between a small sliver of our military spending, and the vast amounts of good we could accomplish for the people (which, as already stated, can easily pay for itself up to a certain level).