[Xietor]

Micah, I am not sure where you are headed with this? The perm sub/temp sub is not a "rule." And it is not my intent to argue about a game I am no longer a part of. This debate may be one more appropriate for the general thread.

But to try and choose my words precisely, and I have been playing mp dominions for years, just not on this forum(here only since Katrina). So this is just my understanding of things. It is not a set rule. Certainly not a game rule.

1. Diplomacy/treaties Players are free to break ignore naps anytime they want. KO has said he sees nothing wrong with this. Personally I have never broken a treaty. But that is just me. But Diplomacy/treaties/naps are not set rules. There is no penalty for breaking them in any game I know of. Your reputation may take a nosedive if you get known as a person who breaks treaties. The "penalty" for being a treaty breaker is you may find it difficult in future games to get a treaty with anyone if no one trusts your word.

2. Temp. Subs-my understanding is a temp sub is not free to break a player's treaties. he must obey the player's wishes as he is just standing in for the player, who will be returning to take the reins of his empire after a break. I have seen game administers, when they are forced to find subs, tell the temp sub to obey the treaties of the player.

3. Permanent sub. A permanent sub is taking a position over from a fresh perspective.
He does not inherit the treaties of the other players. In kingmaker I had a 6 turn nap with lolomo who plays la caelum. Lolomo may trust me, but he may not trust the perm sub as far as he can throw him. So lolomo's nap is personal to me, not my nation.

The same cuts both ways. The perm sub may not trust a player that i trust. And he may not want to be bound by a 6 turn nap when he feels he will be attacked at any time by the other player.

Therefore in every mp game I have been in, the 1st thing a perm sub does is reaffirm existing treaties of the former player, or reject them.

That is my understanding of the situation. But if you start a thread on the meaning of a 3 turn nap, you will quickly see it means 100 different things to different players. So I likely should not have assumed my viewpoint on permanent subs was a universally accepted one. But I have never before heard it questioned.

As to the identity of my sub, it is not a secret, and should not be a secret. On that I agree. But I just handed off the position a few hours ago, and I see no reason to steal my sub's thunder. If for some reason he does not announce himself by tomorrow, I will post his name..

At the moment the sub is likely downloading a map, a mod, and trying to read this long thread, and look at a very complicated position. In short I bet he has no clue what he wants to do yet. If anyone with whom I have a treaty wants to know who my sub is, they can pm me and i will tell you.