[JimMorrison]

Originally Posted by Wrana

First, I would generally agree with Omnirizon about a possibility of abuse and not a great need for this (except in certain cases of old nations which don't have national summons to fill this niche maybe). Still, it's an interesting idea on its own.

Abuse, how? The intent of this mod is primarily for large games, of ~20 players or more where there is already abuse in the form of 3-4 people getting all unique SCs, and most other nations who didn't take Death on their pretender not having direct counters to them. You can argue that most of those nations have other options in communions and the like, and I will invite you to see how fast those armies can be devastated with a little Rain of Stones, or Bone Grinding. A well built SC requires gearable commander units to effectively neutralize - a skilled player should avoid or neuter other threats most of the time, I mean that is precisely what the basic SC is specifically designed for - army killing. Since we know that the basic concept of arming an SC to destroy entire armies works, and is commonplace - then we need to at least allow everyone in a large game, some sort of access to the tools to make SC killing thugs, if nothing else. I can't believe after my last post I felt the need to reiterate, but you put enough time into your own post, I felt obligated to try harder to reach mutual understanding.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Fire:
I would offer Salamander or Dragon first.
Another possibility would be either Talos which I mention later or more generic Golden Statue (with Earth, Mindless, heat aura...).
Some servant of Magma King is another possibility.

The Salamander as far as D&D portrays it (not sure where folklore stands on this), rather than the almost useless Salamanders that Abysia can train? If so, I kind of like it, could modify the Lord of the Waves graphics fairly simply. As far as dragons, I wanted to avoid the cliche, and I feel that if Honeybadger ever finishes his dragons mod, they'll be wayyyyy more fun than just making cheapo pretender chassis knockoffs. Also, Fire is one path that desperately needs something to face up to other SCs, and dragons as implemented thus far in Dom3 cannot hope to do so. A magic weapon is a must, just for starters..... not just teeth.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Earth:
Mechanical Giant/Clockwork Swordsman - generally, they are somewhat similar, with possible difference on Enc. Stats are better than Mechanical Men, full slots, mindless, no magic. As a variation of an idea I'm toying with thought of Talos - a bronze giant with molten copper for blood Daedulos made for King of Crete. But this should be Arcocephalos only...
Ushabti (or Scared Statue if we want to escape Egyptian name). A statue of your god enchanted to move, etc. It would be based on Living Statues, but sacred and maybe a priest.

Actually, if you have seen Hellboy2 (I just did, fun film!), I was inspired by the soldiers in the Golden Army, which is generally much like you described. And, as you point out, something that screams "X nation specific" was generally something I tried to avoid, as per Talos. I will look into the Ushabti later though, and see if it is something I would adapt to general use, rather than it being reserved for C'tis.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Air:
First off, here we can place an archer thug - with either some magical bow or a natural missile attack. It could be either an undead (which I wouldn't like) or a denizen of either heavenly (as in Kailasa) or faerie realms. Of course, it should get a high Precision, plus better hp than humans and higher Str (as some magic missile weapons have Str-related stats). Att/Def may be average.
Stymphalian Bird is a variation on this - requires also Earth, flies and throws its copper feathers at enemies (stats as arrows, but multiple attacks and much ammunition). High natural Prot, misc slots only.
Another possibility would be someone like Vanherse/Sidhe Champion.

Good point, I didn't conceive any of these as primarily intended for ranged use yet. But I wonder if that's what Air most needs? For example, I was going to build in as a drawback on the Archon, a lack of SR, so that he could not be used as a blocker for evocation spam without sacrificing gear slots for immunity to friendly fire. I will try to think on this - a creature that throws spines or something is pretty cool.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Water:
In addition to already mentioned aquatic thugs, I would offer a flying jellyfish - obviously, also requiring Nature or Air, non-magical, large, relatively brittle - but with multiple poisonous attacks.
It's also possible to get character version of Claymen or Alchemical Lion (forgot how it's called - character could use name of Abraxas or something similar).

A flying jellyfish! Oh man now THAT is an image! The Visitor sort of already is such a thing, but this could be a very fun variant on that. Basically a giant gasbag with poison+fatigue damage. That's another I will chew on, I really like it. Making a larger version of the Vitriol Lion has potential - but as it is a spirit of acid, it should be F+W, and I am really trying to avoid cross-path stuff, as it drastically limits availability, and the goal of this mod specifically is to enhance accessibility.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Astral:
Here it gets tricky as Astral is already powerful in late game. It's possible to get something similar to weaker Devatas with a background of a reincarnated great warrior.
Another possibility would be a Champion of Grey Order ((?), the one which contains ethereal Astral mages and knights serving them produced at special site or appearing as a random event).

Ohhhh, hmmmmm. The Shadow Seers, and the Eludians. Now that is another excellent idea. Before I get to building anything for Astral, I'm certainly going to put some concentrated thought in that direction, I think it has serious potential for awesomeness.

Originally Posted by Wrana

Nature:
Some largish Were-creature, of course. It may also be a transformation of the caster rather than summoning spell (I would generally prefer such a way for Nature and possibly Earth instead of summons - or maybe it would be enough to make a Transformation lower and cheaper).
Satha - a giant poisonous snake with mind and possibly additional attack (or defense) with something like Mesmerize.
Maybe Faerie Champion - weaker mage than Queen, but better combatant (or maybe place him in Air)...

That's another fun thought, but do we have a way yet to mod a ritual with random effects such as that? A spell like "Induce Lycanthropy", which was a significantly more powerful version of Transformation, could be a lot of fun - though, it could get really painful trying to get N5 mages to sacrifice for it. Plus, the multiplication of the amount of work if I have to create (already have werewolves in the game) a werebear, a weretiger, a were-great-eagle, etc. I kind of like the snake, though my first guess is that it's not quite the thing for this mod, as for Nature especially, I want options for anti-SC duty as well as traditional army stomping SC duty, and anything like a snake is going to get creamed by an army of any real size (unless it's a giant stone-snake, oh hi there Sandworm but you would belong in Earth!).

Originally Posted by Wrana

Death:
Already has quite enough so I wouldn't add anything here.

Like I said, couldn't help myself. I'm trying to think of one interesting thing to add to Blood maybe. Definitely something very niche use, but a reason for Blood lovers to appreciate the mod as well. For example, the Death summon that I have in mind comes out of Enchantment, and quite high up it - for those with much Death who want to do something other than head straight up Conjuration.


And Aezeal, I will think about your Worm, but he needs some serious balancing for introduction to the base game, I think, and I'm not sure if I want a big giant thing for Earth that only gets misc slots..... we'll see.