Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Ebbesen
Is the Destroyer of Worlds really such a clear better buy at 100 (for those who can buy him) than the Allfather is at 150? (for those who can buy him). I would tend to think not, though I agree that 150 sure feels like an awful lot when creating the pretender. 
While he is obviously inferior to the DoW in starting magic (AD vs A2D2) and thus for blessing purposes of less use, additional paths cost 30 rather, useful for those going for smaller blesses or a touch of rainbow magic. Moreover, the reason people take the Allfather (when not just in order to be thematic) is usually to get a powerful awake or dormant SC with minimal research and equipment needs, and he certainly fits that role very well, considerably better than the DoW does, operating at a very strong level early on while providing some magical coverage later in the game; while the DoW may have 4 arms, the Allfather is flying, has glamour, and gets his own extra attacks (from 2xHoof(20)) (not to mention being extremely stealthy to boot). He can also sail huge armies across oceans, which can be anything from worthless to quite good depending on map.
His eyeloss and lack of foot slot hurts, but being mounted is fairly useful, so it is not all bad news.
For me, the reason not to take him is more that he doesn't provide the sort of power bless that is common for those very few who can get him (3 ages of Vanheim and one of Helheim) than because of his price for what he does, and for that reason alone I am tempted to think that lowering his price alone isn't going to make him a more popular pretender in general: At a whopping 150 points, he remains the most powerful early-game SC of the available chassis for Vanheim and Helheim (and one of the most powerful SC chassis amongst pretenders in the game in general).
For the games I like to play (60-80+ turns), he probably ought to have a lower cost (given the general CBM changes), but what, if any, would be the impact on blitz games from having a 75 points Allfather as you suggest? (I don't know).
What is the true value of glamour on an SC chassis? (Most of us would kill for it, but what's that in points?  ) What is the true value of having path costs of 30 rather than, say, 50? What is the true cost of starting with an affliction that puts one just one eyeloss from blindness, even if the stats have been adjusted to compensate for it?
I find the Allfather devilishly hard to set a point value for because he just has way too many options available to him and several really good base abilities that everybody wants to get (such as flying) or wish they had (glamour). |
Have you actually tried to play with him against real people? (everything works against the computer, after all).
He's not that exciting as an early SC. Actually, he's pretty craptastic. His starting gear is pretty bad. His stats are sort of ho-hum for a titan chassis. He has terrible early buffing potential with his innate paths. (Nothing useful until alt3 for mistform). See below for glamour. He has neither fear nor awe, so D5 and Dom9 are mandatory additional expenses on top of his 150pt pricetag. That's another 227 points *minimum* on just basic SC necessities, for a starting price of 377 points, and you haven't even tried to use that 30pt/new path yet.
Glamour is just free mirror image. Its really not all that, I don't know why people get so worked up about it. Yeah, its exciting when your basic troops have it. But your commanders with air magic can just *cast mirror image* - of course, you rarely do this because its a situational buff. (In fact, for an SC its not a very good one because they're supposed to be fighting *armies* - its most useful for anti-SCs who expect to be fighting one creature). Value of glamour on an SC chassis? Almost nothing.
That he has sailing is irrelevant. So does every fricking commander for the nations that can choose him. And if he's an SC, he's not taking an army with him. The ability is flavor and nothing more.
He flies, great. He also has no boots slot. So basically he gets free boots of flying - which costs what, 10a? 7a with a hammer? And it means you can't give him any different boots instead.
Compared to the Destroyer of Worlds, he's down a boots slot and 2 hand slots, and up 1 misc slot. Ie, net down 2 slots. As you noted, he's A1D1 instead of A2D2, so he's down 2 paths. His paths are also totally useless for Helheim or Vanheim, who have air magic and death magic already, and don't want air or death blesses - not even minor ones. And the DoW is available to Kailasa, who can actually want an A9 bless, and with sacred archers and mages a D8 bless could be entertaining. Ie, the DoW has better paths for the nations that can take it than the Allfather does, even assuming those path lengths were equal.
At 150pts awake, the fact that he can get new paths for 30pts doesn't actually mean much because you *don't have many points to spend*. Even asleep 30pts is a really expensive rainbow, and 150pts is a really expensive opening for a rainbow.
If you take him asleep he's no longer an early expander SC. Which means any advantage he might have had of having flying early is gone, because you could just make boots of flying for your other cheaper pretender at this point.
Lets compare him to some other pretenders Vanheim/Helheim/Midgard have:
Father of Winters:
Adv: Better stats (+1 defense/str), better protection (by one), better weapon out of the box, Cold Power, Chill Aura (of large), a magic path Van/hel might actually want to use for a major bless (Water), a boot slot, 6 more base hp, 50 points cheaper, +1 additional total paths (3 vs. 2)
Disad: Doesn't fly. We can fix this with his boot slot. More expensive new paths - at 50 pts cheaper the first new path is free by comparison, and we have a much better innate path for a bless anyway.
Asynja (this one's going to be embarassing):
Adv: Vastly better stats (8 more defense, 3 more att, mere 1 less str, even better precision fwiw), better weapon, much better armor (chainmail of displacement!), 3 more base hp, 2A vs. 1A1D, bootslot, 125pts less
Disad: Doesn't fly. We can fix this with boots. 50 pts/new path, but at 25 pts the first *2.5* are effectively free by comparison.
Blue Dragon
Adv: Also flies, better str/att (worse base def, but magic path will fix that), much better protection, better attack routine, breath weapon, magic path we actually care about on the pretender, 100points cheaper, innate Fear +5
Disad: Fewer slots, Much more expensive additional paths (yeah, but we saved 100 points on the chassis, and we get a good bless to boot)
Keeper of the Bridge
Adv: +1 att, much better protection, magic path we actually care about (E), 100 pts cheaper
Disad: 1 less str, 2 fewer base hp, more expensive new paths, doesn't fly (hey, these are actually comparable - too bad one's 100 pts cheaper)
Wyrm:
Adv: 78 more base hp!, Much higher str, att, prot (lower defense), regeneration of awesome, fear +0, amphibious, better attack routine, 100 pts less, extra head slot
Disad: Doesn't fly, fewer slots, no magic, more expensive paths
Totally owns Allfather as an early SC. At the point savings, can afford a magic path (or two!) trivially by comparison.
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The allfather is worse than all of those, maybe comparable at best (the Keeper of the Bridge has E, which makes it arguable, although for the nations in question i'd say the Keeper is marginally better), and that's before even considering relative point cost. At 2-3x the point cost of the other options, the fact that he is *worse* than them is just appalling. The two things he routinely does better are flying and cheaper new paths. Of course, the first is only relevant if you take him awake (easy to solve with forging for nations that have abundant air), and the second is impossible to get any relative advantage out of because his base cost is so expensive you don't have the points left to really use it - especially if you take him awake to use the early flying.
And of course, the allfather should also be balanced against the opposition as well. Consider Moloch/PoD/Gorgon. All of which come with Fear (often powerful fear), 3 total paths, flying, full slots (no missing boot slot), and other abilities. in current CBM their point costs are 125/125/150 respectively, and they all are much better than the allfather as early SCs, and 2 of them are better as bless chasses.
He even compares unfavorably to the vampire queen, who, while physically unimpressive, does have a host of useful abilities, the same new magic path cost and flight, and is immortal.
If the allfather was as good as a gorgon (equal to it in combat potential, equally useful magical paths for the nation it belongs to), it would be worth 150 points. Neither its magic paths nor its combat ability live up to that comparison.