[Squirrelloid]

Originally Posted by Mardagg

ok,my friend.I must say that i already hate your arrogance at this point,after only reading half a dozen posts from you.
I just won an MP war with Agartha vs an EA Rlyeh ,that did know what he was doing.
He had no chance,bc my Pale infantry did a good job resisting quite a lot of mind blasts,while my Earth elementals via barathus pact where stomping his Lobos.He then proceeded to target my oracles in further battles,which had starting MR of 18,some did cast iron will for MR 22 before being targeted...in that fight he did not manage to kill a single of my Orcale mages,bc you know,they got pretty good HP,too.
My teleporting Risen oracle did a good job there,too,since,you know,he is amphibous.I took a start dom of 10 so actually wasnt a big problem to face his cold 3,since EA Ryleh always has dom problems.
I say EA Agartha is the top nation for battling EA Squids.
And,you know,that was just an example by me.
You didnt adress any of my other points.

Did YOU ever play EA Agartha?

And I hate your false familiarity and your assumption that I haven't tried these nations. If you make ridiculous claims, expect not to be taken seriously.

Now, clearly EA Rlyeh didn't know what he was doing since he brought lobo guards and mindblasters to a fist fight. I'd take indie tritons over both of those for that fight. Or Slave Trolls, who should mop the floor with both your earth elementals and your troops. Heck, as EA Rlyeh I'd be tempted to take Slave Trolls in general since they give you a way to project power onto land early.

Out of curiosity, what did his mages cast?

And EA Rlyeh often has dom 9-10 on a kraken, which in their case isn't a terrible idea since CBM 1.6 removed the need to have air on its pretender. A dom 10 kraken could have wiped your army *by itself*. Dom 10 similarly tends to imply no problems with dominion.

I have played EA Agartha, repeatedly, in SP, and its the only nation where the AI has given me a hard time. Even such crappy nations as Eriu and Machaka outperform them trivially against the AI. I have not had the opportunity to play them in MP, mostly because while I like playing underdogs they simply are not worth the pain.

As to your other 'points' - (1) There are other sea nations, both of whom are better suited to smashing you than Rlyeh is. EA Oceania is the dominant EA sea nation, and they run you over better than either Rlyeh or Atlantis. (2) Yes, Umbrals are good. They're the only thing Agartha has going for it. And standard UD counters apply. I was one of the people arguing for Umbrals to be returned to Conj 5 (from the Conj 7 they were in CBM 1.5) so that EA Agartha wasn't simply DOA.

Originally Posted by Mardagg

Thats why you take an awake Blood Fountain for example.
Preferbly B4D3N2.
Helps with early research along with magic scale 1.
Lets you summon the first count before end of year 1.
Forges the first Thistle mace so that your N random fortune tellers can cast harupsex early on.

...

What do you do, blood hunt your capital?

That's an awful blood fountain build. Blood fountains need A2 or S3 for mobility reasons if its not being used merely as a bless chassis.

Its also a bad pretender build for LA Ulm longterm because you want S4+ (with a sufficiency of slots) so you can forge the astral rings. You want E so you have S+E to forge coins. And of course you need D3B3 so you can summon vamp counts at all. And as you correctly identified, N is useful to you. Sufficient F to make fire boosters isn't a terrible idea either, and also opens up fire arrows (which since your crossbows are your best troop option, is a really good idea).

Oh yeah, and you want that awake research boost so your research doesn't suck year 1.

You'd also like plausibly decent scales, since you need resources, cash for infrastructure/mages (who are winning no efficiency awards), and so on. Mg1 might help, but Dr2 would at least give you points *and* do something about your perenially weak MR. Of course, your research is *already* bad.

And given how weak Ulm is early, you wouldn't mind some SC help from your pretender. Of course, you aren't going to get that, D3B3, and satisfy your magic diversity needs all at the same time.

You ever heard of specific pretender builds targetting nation weaknesses?

Sure. Have you ever heard of an excess of weaknesses? Its exactly what I indicted Eriu for - like Eriu, LA Ulm needs too many things out of its pretender to reasonably get it all.

With cbm,the blood fountain is a decent choice.
Talking about bad research...LA ULm is the perfect fit for Lightless Lanterns.
Your Fire random black priests with forge bonus dont know what to do with the fire gems anyways.

I dunno, forge flaming skulls so they can Phoenix Power into Flaming Arrows sounds pretty good. Not that you live that long.

Of course, lightless lanterns require that you somehow miraculously made it to Constr 6. Since you probably die early year 2, I am not enthused. Further, weren't we researching iron storm to survive into the midgame?

Have you even read the other points me and the other posters mentionend,that make LA Ulm strong?

Did YOU ever play LA Ulm?

I read 'they have blood and death, how can they possibly be bad'. Note that neither of these are especially good as early game paths. And they're competing against the best blood nations in the game (Mictlan, Abysia) for the unique blood summons, a competition they lose by lightyards. They're competing against everyone else for the Chalice or GoH, which they also lose because their research sucks. So despite having D+B access they don't actually get to use the good B stuff and can't heal their tarts making tart-farming inefficient. (Also, they have no good tart casters - so they have to spend yet more gems on casters who can plausibly tart summon). If they were an MA nation, they might be a plausible blood power. In LA they're just another might-have-been that never makes it.

Jarkko's 'conventional troops' comment is hilarious, because their conventional troops just die against most opponents. Heck, they have trouble expanding vs. typical LA indies with a lot of their troop line-up. And that's before you even consider the pitifully weak MR. And as if your troops being individually worse than most of the opposition you'll face wasn't bad enough, you're also perpetually outnumbered because you pay so much in resources for the privilege of hiring crappy troops. LA Ulm is one of the easiest nations to rush in the game, bar none. I'd class them as easier to rush than Machaka. (If they do survive, their longterm prospects are better... but they always get rushed).

I have played LA Ulm. It was a disappointing experience. Crossbows aren't very good when your line troops just disintegrate after 2-3 rounds of melee, and did almost no damage while there.

Would you like Wraithlord to also wax poetic about the utter suckitude of these nations, since he agreed with most of my list?