[RERomine]

I'm going to parrot in on the Op-Fire portion of this thread...

If you are sitting in a Tiger I and a Sherman comes up on your 6 o'clock position, are you going to take the up to 30 seconds it takes to rotate your turret from 12 o'clock (assuming it is point forward) or are you going to pivot your tank?

Has anyone bothered to look into what the typical practice was during WWII? Most didn't have the high speed traverse that more modern tanks have now. Today, tanks can pivot and put the gun on target at the same time, thanks to stabilization. During WWII, they basically had to pick one or the other. I would think they would do a 180 degree pivot/turn put the front armor to the threat. Once you have your front armor to the threat, you then bring your gun on target and engage.

The enemy turning up directly behind you is an extreme example. Less extreme situations still raise the same question. Let's say on the flank. If you turn your turret and fire, everything is being bet on your gunner. Should the gunner miss, the enemy has a shot at the largest target profile possible: the side of your tank.

I guess the point of this is it seems having a turret during WWII is being considered as more of an advantage than it really was. What a turret did allow was engaging targets within the frontal arc of the vehicle without turning the vehicle. Non-turreted vehicles had about a 20 degree range (depending on the vehicle) where they could put the gun on target without having to turn. A turret also allowed the vehicle to position hull down. Non-turreted vehicles could not fire their main armament from a hull down position. The turret didn't really become a major advantage until post war stabilization of both the gun and turret, in conjunction with high speed traverse.

As far as ATGs go, it really is going to depend on the mount and size of the gun. Some of the heavy ATGs were re-tasked AA guns on a 360 degree mount, so they may turn very quickly. A true ATG design, smaller guns certainly can be turned faster than larger guns. Position is also important. It might be physically impossible to turn a 75mm ATG quickly if it is positioned in the woods.

With respect to the thread topic, IRL, you aren't going to turn your tanks, ATG, what have you, 360 degrees to check in every direction to look for targets. Your gunner is typically rotating the turret from fender to fender looking for targets in the frontal arc. Obviously, this is more limited if it is a non-turreted vehicle and less limited if it is an open topped vehicle. The driver, when he isn't focused on not putting the vehicle in a ditch will also be looking forward, as will the bow machine gunner, if present. That leaves the loader and tank commander responsible for the side and rear arcs. In general, the frontal arc is where the most attention and spotting ability takes place.

The same is true with other unit types as well. Infantry can rubber neck to check their flanks and rear, but will primarily be focused on their front. The thing with infantry is they can use their ears in addition to their eyes. It will help tell when vehicles are close by, but not necessarily provide enough information to engage with. Unless it is very quiet, they probably still need to see enemy ground troops. ATGs, field guns, crew served weapons, etc., should have the same abilities as infantry, spotting ability varying with the number of eyes that can look.

All this said, if a movement penalty is being considered for units that pivot/turn in place, that should be separated from simple sector search that don't really require the whole unit to be turned. Since a pivot/turn requires a right click to occur, how about something like a CTRL right click for just sector searches? Vehicles should be penalized for using this sector search method since they wouldn't be able to put all eyes on any sector other than the one in their frontal arc. Proper infantry support of vehicles will pretty much eliminate this as a liability, anyhow.

There are a couple of thoughts that come to mind with respect to pivot/turn movement point penalties. Both relate to the op-fire aspect of such a penalty. The first is which turn does such a penalty apply? Does the cost of the pivot/turn come out of the next turn's points or the last turn's points? Obviously, if it comes out of last turn’s movement points, some must be left over or the vehicle/ATG doesn't turn and op-fire. The second thought relates back to turret traverse speeds. This obviously would require research, but I would think that if a turret needs to traverse more than one hex right or left, it is likely the tank would have pivoted. I haven't seen many pictures or videos of real WWII footage where the tank guns were more than 45 degrees to the right or left of front center. Before anyone argues it did happen, the operative word was many. Yes, I have some some cranked as much as 90 degrees while engaging.

Well, that's enough rambling for now.