[Amorphous]

Originally Posted by llamabeast

People who don't like CBM changes - it's hard for me to consider these issues without knowing what they are. What bits aren't you so keen on?

Hmm, well theme is of course an entirely subjective thing so I guess it's inevitable that there will be some disagreement on these issues. But I do hope that people realise that one of qm's strongest principles (which I have tried to maintain) is that theme should always come first. In any question of balance vs theme, theme should always win out. What changes do you consider unthematic?

I don't understand the powergaming comment. I guess I don't even know what that means. CBM tries to make OP strategies not OP, while also making very weak strategies feasible.

It's hard to comment in this thread without appearing defensive, but that's not how I'm intending to write, I'm just interested in people's opinions.

I should also say again that in a sense I'm speak for qm here, since CBM is almost entirely his work. I've inherited the mod so I'm interested in people's opinions, but qm should take all the credit.

I will try to give a sort of general answer here, since you ask. If you want a longer discussion, we should perhaps take it in the latest CBM thread.

If you cannot understand the comments about power, you should try to look at CBM with Vanilla in mind, not an old CBM-version.

Look at it like this:

Scales are more powerful.
Sure, order is down a percentage point, but production is up two and the population growth of the growth-scale, as well as both values of the luck scale, is increased.

Pretenders are more powerful.
Sure some are toned down a bit and a few are the same, but the majority of them are cheaper or better - frequently both. This includes staples such as the master lich and the great enchantress.

Recruits are more powerful.
Sure, there are a few that have increased costs in some form, but the changes across the board are decreased gold cost, decreased resource cost and decreased encumbrance.

While the removal of hammers and gem generators make cost comparisons rather dicey when it comes to forging, it is quite clear that, in general, items in CBM require less research, less paths and are frequently more powerful, too.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture.

Understand that I am not saying that this is necessarily bad, but CBM is rather clearly a souped up version of the game if we consider power. My own concerns with CBM is not so much a general power-up - as long as relative power stays acceptable in MP I do not really mind that much - but that the particulars of it has created some rather unfortunate effects.

As for theme, it is indeed a question of perspective and it is a term shock-full of preconceptions in a context such as this. Perhaps it is better to talk about the character of nations. The changes to some nations changes how they play and feel rather severely. I think MA Man may serve as a decent example.

In vanilla this is a nation with a very small holy component. There is a h1 priest recruitable everywhere as well as the sacred mother, but otherwise it is mundane recruits all the way. In the capital you have the sacred wardens and their captains in addition to crones and daughters. Note that the even the capital-only top elite troop option is not sacred. Clearly in other than very small and quick games sacred troops and priests form a very small part of Man's arsenal. In CBM on the other hand you suddenly have three priests recruitable everywhere and the recruitment of wardens is similarly extended. Even the Knights of Stone have been rendered sacred.

What I am trying to get across here, is that even though this of course can be considered in keeping with the general thematics of MA Man, it clearly changes the general character of the nation.

For my own part, I also do not quite understand what these particular changes are supposed to fix. If Man has a problem, it is the lack of built in end-game. None of the changes really address that. What I see when I look at the changes to MA Man, is a mod trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole.


I hope this makes some things a bit clearer.


To speak of myself, I try to keep up with what happens in CBM and play it a bit now and then, so I sometimes enjoy discussions concerning it, but things will have to change rather much before I prefer it to vanilla. My play-style and CBM simply do not suit each other particularly well.