[rob89]

AT indirect (artillery) fire

I know that this matter has been discussed yet, in this and other threads and so I hope not to bore you; I've read your opinions about that matter, but, analysing the database (v.6.0) I found - IMHO - some incoherent records.

Let's start, as a benchmark, from the AP/HEAT penetration of a 120mm shell.

Modern tank gun HEAT round is generally defined with a capability of 60 (=600mm) or more; modern 'conventional' 120mm mortars, like EFSS, IMI, etc. have no HEAT but a AP Pen of 21. All these shells are 'single' ones; no bomblets at all. But the AMOS e Nona gun-mortar types, having also AP ammos, are granted with CM with, respectively, a 21cm (AP) or 60 cm (HEAT) capability !!! (go to point c)

Now let's go to the MLR class, with CM : MLRS, BM-27 Uragan and BM-30 Smerch. Somebody in the thread said that they have an effect, on tanks, similar to that of the 152/155mm cluster munitions. But, in the database, noone of the above mentioned MLRs have an AP Pen : value = zero; so :

a) they are considered as having only HE bomblets (DPICM, like the M77/M85)

b) they don't damage modern tanks, but only harass / damage them : in my tests, with heavy MLR bombardment vs modern tank formations, I never had a real-complete kill; in the best cases the suppressed crews left the vehicle and/or the vehicle itself was immobilized.

On the other side, there is the issue related to the 152/155mm class CM.

All of them (M109, MSTA, PzH2000, towed variants, etc.) have been granted with a 60 AP pen capability ! I.e., they have sub-muni with the same pen-capability of a whole 120mm HEAT shell.

c) why an AP pen, for submunitions, with so a high value : a 155mm sub-muni with about three times the capability of a EFSS, IMI mortar single round and equal to the standard 120mm HEAT ? It's obvious that with this value (vs the top armor), no tanks could have a chance to survive, if hit.

Note :

d) the standard DPICMs of the standard 152/155mm CM shells (like the M42/M46) are small bomblets like the ones in the MLR rockets - or smaller - with the AP pen value of a 40mm grenade (so in terms of game data, about 5-7, not 60!)

e) only Sadarm like (or the CBU-97 SFW) 'skeet' submunitions could have such a pen value; but they are exceptions (and they had limited production), and not the rule. Moreover, the Sadarm like munitions were deployed in the mid '90, but in the database the "60-AP-pen" is available from mid '80 (M284 & 2A65 with AP
rounds, for ex.).

f) the game engine manages these 152/155mm AT sub-muni rounds as :

- AP for the western gun-mortars like AMOS : AP Pen value = 21; HEAT value = 0

- AP for the US/Western guns : AP Pen value = 60; HEAT value = 0
- HEAT for the RUS gun-mortars like Nona : AP Pen value = 25; HEAT value = 60 (???)

- HEAT for the RUS guns : AP Pen value = 60; HEAT value = 60.

and so the ERAs have effects only vs the Nona / 2A65 CMs; no defense in the case of the AMOS & M284/FH155 ecc.. Why ? One of the russian T-72/80/90s atout is just the ERA's top armour protection. In this way, the CM capability seems to be modeled as the ultimate T-xx killer.

Indeed, I tested 155mm CM vs T-90A and I had a kill/hit ratio of about 90%, but always without any reaction from ERA (and no message like in the ATGM/AGM cases). On the other side, Merkava 4 have good chances (with their ERAs, that generally defeat the sub-munis) vs MSTA+ CM, due to the HEAT value if the russian shells.

IMHO, the AT capability of the 120/152/155mm CM sub-muni seem to be over-estimated, by about a 10 factor (60cm vs probably a 5-7cm in real world, in the DPICM cases), with heavy consequences on the simulation mechanics and on the game play, and - in the case of western guns - thet are treated as AP and no HEAT, without any defence chance by modern ERA. In the case of the gun-mortars, if the AP/HEAT simulates the single-shell, it would be necessary to avoid the CM effect.

thank you in advance for the attention and for any explanation

regards

PS 1 : will it be possible, in the future, to model NLOS missiles (like NLOS Spike) ?

PS 2 : please note that the PzH2000 in the german and in the italian OOB are different, and the german one has a wrong range.