Orc Mod concept - feedback required

[Blitz]

I've been working on an orc mod for Dom2 for the past few days, and I wanted to run the concept by a few of the veteran players before hitting beta. Balancing races is pretty tough.

Basic Orcish Concept

- Require double supplies
- orc units have recuperation ability
- Average Priest units, both holy and unholy
- Average Sorcery/Earth Mages
- No regular bless troops
- Mainly twohanded weapons
- Inacurate crossbowmen

I won't list the full stats of troops, but I figured 12-15hp for the regulars, mainly in scale mail with no inherant AC bonuses. They would be stronger and tougher than humans, but have poorer morale and accuracy. Troops to be included in the mod include:

- Militia (spear/round shield)
- Crossbowman
- Axeman (Great Axe)
- Halberdier (Castle Defender)
- Berserker (2x Broadsword, TBA berserk modifier)
- Halforc Bloodguard (think Marignion elites)
- Orcish War Machine (Catapult w/ flaming rocks)

- War Chief (just a big orc)
- Orcish Hero (bigger orc with +5 Standard)
- Seeress (Researcher with a random sorcery pick)
- Witch Doctor (NBHH sacred)
- Shaman (SDHH sacred)
- Evangelist (HHH sacred)
- Halforc Necromancer (DDUUU)
- Halforc Magus (ENNS?)

These orcs would be above-average melee combatants with some blood hunting/communion abilities and weak necromancers. A bit of a jack-of-all-trades race.

Thoughts?

[PvK]

Well orcs are quite different depending on what game or book you're basing them on.

I don't recognize much from what you've listed, except to guess maybe it's Warhammer or Warcraft or D&D you're thinking of, none of which I personally play or study much.

From a Tolkien, TFT, and GURPS background, I would say:

An orc nation is generally led by someone stronger and often non-orcish (in this case, the pretender), often with non-orcish commanders and mage support. Orcs tend to be impressed by powerful and strong leaders, to whom they give strength of numbers.

Concept points:

- require normal, half or no supplies, or have units to produce supplies, due to foraging and willingness to eat various crud. Different tribes might have different survical skills.

- do not have recuperation ability - were it possible, I'd give them a random chance to start with an affliction, to represent their chaotic, pugilent nature, disregard of safety, and the likelihood of poor medicine.

- sorcerors and mages depend on the genre and world, but stereotypically I would expect no orcish ones, or low-powered ones perhaps in fire, maybe earth, death, and blood, but not air nor astral.

- cheap and ineffcient equipment of various varieties, not always well chosen ensembles. Both bows and crossbows possible, but no great talent.

- very low gold cost. perhaps low resource cost as well, to represent that most orcs have scavenged their weapons from somewhere.

- not very many elite orcs. mostly masses of rugged but crude rabble, cheap to raise and maintain if they fear you enough. any elite orcs would have usual costs and resource requirements.

- good marchers - all units map move 2.

Militia might be:
HP 10, STR 10, ATK 9, DEF 8, MRL 8
rusty shortsword or axe or spear or hammer or mace, little or no armor
Cost: 2 gold, 2 resources

Regular might be:
HP 11, STR 11, ATK 10, DEF 9, MRL 10
cheap shortsword or axe or spear or hammer or mace, light armor
Cost: 4 gold, 4 resources

Elite might be:
HP 12-14, STR 11-12, ATK 11, DEF 9, MRL 12
morningstar or flail or battleaxe or maul, scale or chain armor, full helmet, shield if weapon one-handed
Cost: 12-15 gold, 20 or so (usual math) resources

Anyway, that's the sort of thing I expect from orcs. They're not usually elite, just numerous and savage.

PvK

[ April 30, 2004, 23:33: Message edited by: PvK ]

[Teraswaerto]

Tolkien's original concept of orcs is quite different from where you are going. The average orc would be size 1, low morale, untrained & poorly equipped. Strenght from huge masses. Only the largest elite Uruks would be size 2, with stats comparable to human soldiers.

[tinkthank]

I think the original poster has "Warcraft III" in mind, the "War Machine (Catapult with flaming rocks)" being the hint for me.
For those who don't know it, Blizzard made a very believable nation of proud, tundra-crossing shamen and proud, strong warriors which are somehow reminiscent of a cross between "native american" "Indians" and Mongolian hordes (WIII
orcs refer to themselves as "The Horde").
So for this reason, Blitz, the majority here is not going to understand your feel for this nation, since the majority here dislikes WarcraftIII or has never played it. (I thought it was an excellent and well-crafted game, I just dont like RTSs.)

- I like your point with a siege engine. Could be tough to do. It would be a lifeless construct capital-only requiring huge resources and a siege bonus like the Ulmian engineer.

- I think fire and blood should be strongish paths, with perhaps some foreign death and earth.

- some form of berserking should be in for one type of troop, perhaps coupled with this idea: Those units that go berserk have a chance of entering a state of blind rage, where they simply attack the nearest unit for a certain amount of time (I think the spell is called: "Rage"?); this could be a sort of berserker that fits into the theme. Or perhaps they have the "Gone Berserk" (a la wolf pelt) attribute always on?

Just some thoughts.
Good luck!

[Cheezeninja]

I think pangea makes a wonderful base template for an orc conVersion. Simply change the pan into some sort of orc warlord and change maenads into orc grunts, you have a bunch of fodder flocking to the powerful orcs. My take on orcs is more the D&D/ Warhammer take, obviously based on tolkien but a little beefier, and a little stoopider. Lots of Musclebound idiots with low morale and terrible equipment, but ferocious in close combat.

[Blitz]

I wasn't aware that I had to adhere to a Tolkien-esque code

I guess my concept of orcs is a meld of Warhammer, Warcraft, and AD&D... I never really thought about it. I always figured orcs as shorter, stronger, stupider, green humans =).

Really I was looking for balance opinions... I believe only C'tis Desert Tombs have both holy and unholy priests, and that's a 200 point pick.

Also, I wasn't sure how to mod a flaming catapult rock... I figured using the giant boulder-thrower's missile weapon with a flaming arrows flag. I assume this will work, but I haven't gotten to that point yet. I'm still struggling to come up with some decent looking sprites for the units. I'm somewhat artisticly challenged in that area.

- I think fire and blood should be strongish paths, with perhaps some foreign death and earth.

Unfortunately this would make them play a lot like Abyssa. I'd think giving them easy access to devils through blood magic might be a little unbalancing as well. Devils coupled with heavy infantry might be a little much when you throw in skeleton generators. As it stands, they only really look to be able to cast cross breeding, and would rely on their pretender for any other blood rituals.

The random pick on the magus is meant to be a sorcery slot, limiting them to earth/sorcery... not unlike the giants with their water/sorcery paths.

[ May 01, 2004, 20:42: Message edited by: Blitz ]

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Blitz:
Really I was looking for balance opinions... I believe only C'tis Desert Tombs have both holy and unholy priests, and that's a 200 point pick.

CW Pan also has both holy and unholy priests, although their holy priests are nowhere near the Lizard Kings.

Depends on whether or not you are doing the "Good Orc in a Bad World" or a "Bad Orc in a Good World".

I've alwayd liked it when books and games humanize the classic villans, especially when villans are portrayed as simply doing what they need to and not some insidious plot of 'evil'.

I would use Nature, Death and Blood and leave out fire.

You might also want to mash together a few of your magical commanders. And only have a few different magic commanders, I would assume the Shamans and Witch Doctors wouldn't let magic be too prevelant in order to maintain control.

[PDF]

Orcs without Fire ? We could also try Elves without Air...
But having "strong" orcs will just replicate Abysia That's why I think that even if noone *has* to make Tolkienesque Orcs, it'll be a much more interesting choice than creating a Abysian theme with some Death or Nature thrown in

In my mind Orcs should be rather weak (normal strength, bad morale, second-rate equipment), but cheap, somewhat sturdy (maybe 11-12 hp, maybe recuperation).
Elites (Uruk Hai) could be on par with Abysians. Additionnaly the nation could recruit Wolf rider cavalry and Trolls...
Their magic paths should rather be Fire and Earth (Isengard..), maybe a little Astral, with Death shamans as priests.

To make the race interesting bigger beasts

[Blitz]

I would use Nature, Death and Blood and leave out fire.

That's basicly where they stand, with a splash of earth and astral.

The Shaman (SDHH) is meant to be a "bad" Version of the C'tis shamen, able to cast nether bolt and other bad things.

My Witchdoctor (BNHH) concept was a "mad scientist" role, gathering blood slaves and crossbreeding. Making them unholy priests might not be a bad idea.

The Necromancer (DDUUUU) is self-explanitory.

The Magus is the one I'm not totally happy with. I want to give the orcs SOME high-end magic ability, but not one that will break the race. Perhaps earth isn't the best choice as an elemental school. Obviously Blood/Fire would give us the devil problem, and mirror Marignon/Abyssa. The seeress dosen't really fit the theme either, so maybe scrap her and add another melee hero.

I'll take suggestions on the top-end magic hero. Something with fire would probably work.

Elites (Uruk Hai) could be on par with Abysians. Additionnaly the nation could recruit Wolf rider cavalry and Trolls...
Their magic paths should rather be Fire and Earth (Isengard..), maybe a little Astral, with Death shamans as priests.

What are Uruk Hai? I like the name, no idea where it comes from. As for cavalry and trolls, I've pretty much decided to make them strong melee fighters as is, adding even mediocre flankers might be a bit much. Trolls would definately fit the concept. I definately considered them (and their troll king hero) for the mod, but decided against it. What I did consider was an expensive troll unit with either a fear or standard aura that players could mix into the army. I'd like to discourage troll-massing and keep with the orc theme

[ May 01, 2004, 22:27: Message edited by: Blitz ]