The problem of low hit points on humans

[Epaminondas]

I am sure this issue has been thrashed about here, so forgive me if I am reviving a tired topic. Nonetheless, it is extremely frustrating for me to play Arco or Marveni in the Demo, as it was extremely frustrating for me to play human nations in Dom II due to the extremely low hit points of their commanders. And after seeing my super-kitted Arco hero Pathos getting one-shotted by a Mind Blast (and he had like 24 MR due to the MR trinket, Solaris Helm, and the MR increasing battlefield spell), I've had it.

The fundamental problem is this: the hit points for the human commander are so low (usually 10-15) that he is constantly menaced by the possibility of getting one-shotted--even by low quality units--and this makes the possibility of turning him into thug a problematic endeavor, to put it charitably. Absent turning him into a prophet or acquiring hit points increasing heroic skills such as Toughness or Unequaled Obesity (I believe these two are the only ones), a human commander will typically have less than 15 hit points. Compared to the durability of a Niefel Jarl or a Basalt King or a Dai Oni, you can see there is a serious imbalance.

Now, I understand that it is unrealistic for humans to approach the hit points of these giant-sized creatures; and that is not what I am asking. But surely, there is a way to slightly increase human commander hit points across the board so that the one-shot phenomenon unique it can be mitigated? It seems to make sense both gameplay-wise and context wise, given Dom III's fantasy-like setting. (Yes, Dom III is not an RPG, but it has an RPG element, and the current system where the commanders/heroes are only some 10-30 percent stronger than the base units that they are modeled on seems a bit out of whack.)

So I think a reasonable solution would be to double the base hit points of the human commanders; say, if an average human soldier has 10 hit points, why not 20 hit points for a human commander? In conjunction with something like 1 hit-point or 2 hit-point increase per experience level, this would enable a fairly experienced human commander to approach 25-30 hit points, which seems more reasonable.

Would this unbalance the game? I don't think so, if the human commanders would cost slightly more. While this may concededly be a serious adjustment in the game mechanics, I do not think it would unbalance the game in a way that would require other serious adjustments. Am I off on this? Or is this simply a dead horse topic?

[Patriot]

I understand the frustration, but in the end, I believe that commanders are valued because of their leadership and should not be cradeled like a baby. Like a common soldier, they are replacable. Sub-commanders are placed in armies in case, your prophetized rare-item ridden leader of God gets obliterated with one spell.

Maybe it's a mistake to nurture a low hp commander as a SC. I've never played a game where I rely on one powerful soldier, so I'm pretty stupid on that subject. I went off topic.

I think that humans are average and thus 10hp is average. Raise human commander hp to 20 and Niefel Jarls and Basalt King should have hps in the realm of Pretender Gods. Personally, I wouldn't care if the game was patched to raise human hp though. Still I'm leaning to thinking that it's fine the way it is.

[Ighalli]

I think humans surviving a sword through the gut or being enveloped in a blast of fire is against the flavor of dominions. Personally, I like the fact that commander HP are done the same as soldier HP; it makes for a more gritty ("realistic" maybe?) fantasy world. If you don't like it, at least you can write a mod and increase the HP of the commanders you use.

[alexti]

I feel that human commander's HP are just fine. It seems normal that a single lightning bolt, or a hit by a giant, or even a well aimed arrow can kill them. They're pretty cheap and easily replaceable (it's good idea to have few spare commanders in your army). They're commanders because of their leadership skills, not because they're superhumans. Though they usually pretty good fighters and can often defeat 2 regular human soldiers.

And even Niefel Jarl can be wiped out in pretty much one shot. Ok, paralyze may not kill him outright, but routing work by a few soliders will finish him in that state.

I don't think it's a good idea to put too much equipment on those humans - they die quite easily. I'd usually put some cheap shield and armor so that they can survive stray arrows and, appropriate cheap magic booster when necessary. Of course, the end game is another story and you have to equip all your battlemages (armor and at least fire and cold resistance).

[Endoperez]

Human mages would still be recruited over human commanders, independent commanders would still be the most often recruited type to lead units, and only human sacred/otherwise elite melee commanders would really benefit from this (they MIGHT have a minor use with the change)... except that the best of the best humans already have increased hitpoints. Paladin - 15 hp. Black Lord - 17 hp. Lord Warden of Man - 20 hp (although that's from a magical enchantment, LW of Chelms has "only" 14 hp.)
Some of that seems to be 2 bonus hp that heavy cavalry seem to have. Daimyos of Jomon only have 11 hp, but lesser Hatamotos have 12, so I quess Daimyos are meant to have 13. Hoplite Commander has 13 hp, Agema Commander has 15 hp, etc.

[B0rsuk]

I think the thread starter's frustration comes from three reasons:

- he insists on entering the SC game
- he insists on making SC's out of humans
- he insists on playing a nation that doesn't fit his playing style. I could suggest playing Ulm, it has more HPs by default. By the way, I think sending Pathos to front line is misusing him - he has a strong Standard ability for a reason. Send the minotaur hero into battle, he can't really do anything else. 20+ hp and 16 base protection seems what you're looking for.

Personally I'm fine with the way humans are in Dominions. Dominions is the first game I see in a long time that doesn't pretend humans are demigods. Players are used to games where it takes like 20 sword hits to kill a human. (Warcraft3 ....)
Please notice that commanders in Dominions are called commanders, and not heroes. This is because, well, they're not heroes. You have to work hard to become a hero. Dominions has a mechanic for this called Heroic Ability.

[Hullu]

Which reminds me of...

Would be nice if the heroic abilities made sense. It's annoying to get valor or quickness for a mage. When your SC-non-caster gets some semi-useless reinvigoration(not useless, but I'd prefer quickness or somesuch):/

In my last singleplayer game I actually waited to get a melee guy with quickness before I made anyone a prophet. Combined with imprisoned pretender I played my first 30 turns without propher or a pretender

[PvK]

Thinking of HP as "heroic (survival) points" is an abstraction that might satisfy some players for a while. But it's not a very accurate abstraction, and of course leads to characters being practically unkillable until they wear out, which is good if your goal is to avoid making players sad by seeing their characters die by any sudden bad luck. Of course, when the HP run out in such a system, suddenly the character can't afford to stay in combat.

Personally, I enjoy that Dominions has more detailed game mechanics that more directly represent things like fatigue, luck, defense skill, etc, instead of lumping things into a big buffer of hitpoints. I also enjoy the unpredictableness of the results, and the sudden tragic injuries and losses (and successes) against the odds. I think a lot of interesting and sense-making cause-and-effect would be lost if a bunch of bonus hitpoints were thrown on some human characters to keep them alive (though I can see that some players would enjoy doing so in a mod in order to have it play more like games they're used to).

To increase the power and survivability of some heroes, I'd sooner give them higher Defense, Luck, MR, Air Shield (representing caution/tactics/dodging/whatever), or even a few points of Prot (representing toughness or the ability to do something to reduce wound severity), before I'd resort to dumping on HP.

As for arguments that "it's a fantasy game; it shouldn't be realistic" - bah! The detail and realism of the framework and non-magical statistics are what give the magical stuff context, meaning, and proportion. Without the foundation of realistic systems and appropriate values, the magic and fantastic stuff would lose its meaning. In Dominions, if a spell says it will rip people limb from limb, it really will - but as soon as people's Hit Points start multiplying, it's also nerfing the fantastic and removing its meaning - the giants would no longer be giants compared to men, etc.

As for citing weaknesses of the representation of assassination and trampling, those are just weaknesses, not intentionally put there to improve "playability and theme"!

I enjoy worthy heroes, but I want their abilities to fit the system rather than bend it (like my Warrior King of Ulm mod for Dom 2).

PvK

[Turin]

PvK said:

I enjoy worthy heroes, but I want their abilities to fit the system rather than bend it (like my Warrior King of Ulm mod for Dom 2).

PvK

May I ask which heroes you feel bend the system? I felt that I was pretty stingy with giving hp boosts and I think noone has more than 2 times as much as the base unit after which he is modelled, which was my upper limit.

[PvK]

Turin said:

May I ask which heroes you feel bend the system? I felt that I was pretty stingy with giving hp boosts and I think noone has more than 2 times as much as the base unit after which he is modelled, which was my upper limit.

Sorry Turin, I wasn't specifically criticising anything in Worthy Heroes mod. I was talking about the suggestion in this thread to multiply the HP of human units that players would like to use as thugs.