Vengeance of the Dead makes me angry!

Bananadine · #1 February 17th, 2010, 11:12 AM

Cripes, a commander can have 334 hit points, 20% regeneration, 30 morale, 21 protection, ethereality, zero fatigue gain, a vine shield, and an ELIXIR OF LIFE and still die from it! After the dead ones have already "routed"!

I guess I need to use charcoal shields instead, from now on. Or some kind of berserker suit.

Bananadine · #2 February 17th, 2010, 11:20 AM

Oh and my commander wasn't automatically killed by the turn limit, I think. She routed... albeit at about turn 75. So I guess this isn't even due to that turn-limit bug I see being discussed in this other thread! (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com//showthread.php?t=35670)

Bananadine · #3 February 17th, 2010, 11:29 AM

OH and this is a unit whose description says she never sleeps. WHAT ABOUT THAT

Well, I don't expect to add too much to that other thread, or convince anybody of anything who wasn't convinced by it. I do not like this spell much, though!

Bananadine · #4 February 17th, 2010, 11:52 AM

...Okay yeah the issue is covered pretty thoroughly in that other thread. Dudes agree, more or less, that Vengeance of the Dead is cheap in a surprising and ugly way, but that it's either balanced, or only mildly overpowered. One thing I have to add, though: For people who haven't been playing the game forever, the spell is very overpowered, because although those people could counter it if they knew how, they won't know how, as I didn't. Even if they think about the problem, they'll expect their tough commander to win the fight, not realizing that fricking Dead Ones don't flee when routing. THAT is a bug. The spell may or may not be too powerful, but it is powerful in so surprising a way that against many players it may as well be too powerful.

I think maybe I will make a list of things like this to warn players of my games about, before the game starts! The list will probably only have this item in it for a long time, maybe forever.

Also, this idea (by kasnavada) probably won't ever be implemented but it's awesome:

Quote:

I just thought of this as a solution : a 'ritual of forgiveness' which reduces the kill count to 0, but as a side effect gives the unit 0 experience again.

...except I'd prefer a somewhat more severe penalty than 0 experience (though a high price on the spell might suffice), but basically it's an awesome and entertaining idea.

Trumanator · #5 February 17th, 2010, 12:19 PM

Tbh nearly everyone finds this out the hard way unless they read a lot of threads. Don't sweat it so much. It's somewhat OPed currently, but its mr-resists so loading up on MR gear can protect you.

Bananadine · #6 February 17th, 2010, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trumanator

Tbh nearly everyone finds this out the hard way unless they read a lot of threads. Don't sweat it so much. It's somewhat OPed currently, but its mr-resists so loading up on MR gear can protect you.

My players will not find out the hard way.

Ink · #7 February 17th, 2010, 12:29 PM

It isn't necessarily OP, it is a counter only to SCs with massive amounts of kills; it's sort of the paper against the rock of super-SCness.

and even then it is still MR resists.

WingedDog · #8 February 17th, 2010, 01:48 PM

If your SC has astral and you expect it to be VoDed - you can script 'Returning'. Otherwise fire shields and fire brands help.

Bananadine · #9 February 17th, 2010, 02:45 PM

Not if you don't know about the extreme harshness and (arguable) bugginess of the routing rules in this spell's battles! Of course I'd do that stuff NOW, but, see, that unit I just lost has been with me for a year. This isn't Starcraft or something, where you lose your awesome unit that you love and then start a new game twenty minutes later and build a new awesome unit! People should be expected to roll with the punches most of the time, yes, but not ALL the time--not when they're as nasty and cheap as this!

A dude in the thread linked below (which, again, covers most of this in great detail) claims that even living (as opposed to undead) immortals can be permanently killed by this spell! THAT I would not expect--not as a new player, not even as a person who's been playing for years.

So, this problem warrants a pre-game warning.

(Part of the reason why I'm keen on this "warning" idea is that, now that I know how crazily harsh Vengeance of the Dead can be, I'm going to start casting it more against my own enemies! And if I don't warn them first, I'll feel like a jerk.)

Slobby · #10 February 17th, 2010, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bananadine

...just lost has been with me for a year....

Aw and here I had been hoping that she would die to a doom horror after all the horror marks I gave her! Can we expect a mummy?

(all assuming of course that the unit you lost is who I think it is...)