Whips and spears on a thug for repelling?

[moderation]

Hi, I'm still trying out the demo and experimenting with making a thug. Would a Vine Whip be useful as a defensive weapon if it is able to entangle anyone who attacks? I tested this out, but I don't seem to entangle anyone who attacks. I thought combining this with a Vine Shield might be useful. The Vine Shield seems to well, but the whip by itself only entangles one enemy at the time.

On a related note, I've been trying out a Lightning Spear and it doesn't seem to be effective for repelling. Can someone clarify how repels work and what would be the a good defensive weapon? I've tried the Frost / Fire Brands and the Sword of Swiftness, which seems to be almost as effective while giving some extra defense. The thug in question has 20+ strength so it pretty much kills anything in one hit, but I'm wondering what weapon and equipment combo I can use to keep it alive and affliction free longer.

[Shovah32]

Repels aren't terribly useful. Try a fire/frost/shadow brand along with a shield - probably charcoal, but vine works too. Throw on boots of quickness and he should be killing 2 squares full of enemies per turn and either burning or entangling (great with trample. Consider boots of the behemoth, possibly with jade armour) anybody who attacks.

[Gregstrom]

Quick answer:

Repels are dependent on opponent morale, so won't be effective on high morale enemies. They also are less likely to work on each attack beyond the first. As thugs are frequently surrounded by a swarm of enemies, repels probably won't be your best choice for protection.

For kitting out in the demo... Vine Shield or Eye Shield, strong armour, something to stop arrows, a ring of regeneration to stop afflictions and a Frost/Fire Brand to rack up kills more quickly.

[Sombre]

Repel from a whip with capped damage 1 won't get through the enemy armour and so won't repel anyway, I believe.

Remember repel needs:

Longer reach than the attacking enemy
High attack value in order to pass the roll to 'hit' vs their def
High power to beat their armour and deal the 1 damage
Low enemy morale for them to fail the check they get when they take that 1 damage and not attack you

So basically it sucks. It does improve stuff like pikemen and spearmen vs the morale 9 barbarians, because they have bad morale, shorter weapons and virtually no protection. But even there it isn't as good as having a ranged weapon. So you can see even in an ideal situation it's pretty rubbish.

[Endoperez]

Morale check to abort attack happens before the roll for damage, so repel can keep opponents from attacking even when you use a whip.

[Sombre]

Are you sure? I thought repel needed to deal the 1 damage in order to cause the moral check, thereby making heavily armoured troops immune to most repel.

Quoting the manual isn't going to convince me otherwise (it's wrong too often), an in game example would though.

[Darkstone]

I have a quick follow up question... when you have a unit with multiple weapons (each with different weapon lengths), such as a knight attacking a spearman, would the lance have no chance of getting repelled, but would a broadsword and a hoof do get chances of repel?

Conversely, does the knight always repel with his lance?

[OmikronWarrior]

moderation said:
The thug in question has 20+ strength so it pretty much kills anything in one hit, but I'm wondering what weapon and equipment combo I can use to keep it alive and affliction free longer.

My first rule of defense is play to unit in questions strengths. The second rule is counter your opponents attacks, but thats a later lesson.

Anyways, if the thug has high defense, work on improving that. For example, a Niefle Jarl has an incredibly high base defense of 13. OK, thats not incredibly high, but its still good. Especially when you consider what bonuses they have access to. They all have base water magic of 3, meaning at least +3 defense there. They also get another +1 defense per each tick of the cold scale. They can also cast personal quickness for another +3 defense. Throw in a sword of swiftness (which has great synergy with personal quickness) for + 4 defense there. Other options include the Cat Charm for another +4 defense. This is before we factor in a shield's parry value and the effects of the chill aura on reducing enemy fatigue and thus attack skill. The rule of thumb is 30+ defense is untouchable by normal troops. This rule also applies to protection. So, if your thug has high base protection and access to earth magic, maybe protection is the route to go.

However, what inevitably kills units is fatigue. Meaning if you want to keep the thug alive when taking on hordes of barbarians, you have to give them some reinvigoration items. Nature magic has the best revig items, though earth has the girdle of might as well. Alternatively, for sacred units you can use an earth bless for some revig.

As for the best combo, focus on sustainability and not so much pure damage. Luck is ALWAYS a good thing, since it doubles a units survivability no matter what the attack. Luck is strictly the providence of Astral Magic. For high HP units, regen becomes very powerful and useful in this regard. Once again, nature has the best regen items (Hydra Armor and Ring of Regeneration). Regen also reduces the liklihood of afflictions.

Exact kits are going to vary per unit strengths and the resources of the nation, but for the above mentioned Niefle Jarl I like 1 sword of quickness, 1 horror helm (adds fear, great for PD), Boots of the Messenger (+4 revig), 1 luck amulet, and 1 anti-magic amulet combined with a (6N6E4W bless, +10% regen, +3 revig, and +2 defense). Jarls Casts at least personal quickness. Armor and shield as available. Both eye and vine shields are good options to have, though the default Ice Aegis ain't bad. Armor should be low encumbrance.

[Kamamura]

Comments on repel in general - I think it's not as useful for a single powerful unit that will get swarmed (as in real situation, I believe), but it's quite useful for formations of pikemen and such against low morale chaff, like some PD.

I played as MA Ulm recently and observed combats closely. The guardians, when fighting some wolf tribesmen actually did the repel animation very often, and in case of low HP chaff, even that 1 damage on successful repel maybe important. Moreover, it's and extra layer of defense that really extends life expectancy of the troops.

So, IMO it's not worthless at all.

[Sombre]

How is 1 damage going to be useful, even against 10 hp chaff?

If the guardian hits them he's basically going to kill them whether they have the full 10 or they're on 9. I mean I know it's better than nothing, but it isn't much better.

I don't think anyone is saying repel is useless, just that it isn't a major consideration when picking troops.