Some Giro thoughts

[Imp]

I am wondering if modern Russian stuff is possibly to good cant find info on perhaps Epoletov could chip in think he did work on recent Russian OOB changes.

With out checking to my knowledge West has the following tanks with 6 stabilization.
USA - M1A2 SEP
Australia - There Abrams & only none USA version, error?
S. Korea - K1A1
Israel - Merkerva Mk4

Russia T-80 UM (not Bars)
T-90A

Both have stabilisers rated 6 which for the following reasons I find suspect.
T-80 I think has the bigger turret ( if remember correctly) though still small by Western standards so if any has 6 would expect it to be T-80.
How did they keep pace with USA tech looking at military budgets over the last few years, in game Russia gets 6 giro 2 years before USA does.
Also Russian refit/new tank production has been fairly limited AFAIK so giving the majority 5 makes sense to me or even 4 like the export T-90s are given.

Also related Ukraine T80 UD has giro of 4 & never improves, also the T-84 has a giro of 3. Pretty sure Ukraine said they made improvements possibly not to giro but to overall FC.

In summary I think T-90A is nearly on par with SEP & Merk4 in game terms with fractionaly less FC while T-80 UM matches most Western tanks on FC but has a better giro.
In game terms & not advocating changes due to this just pointing out modern Russian stuff is probably modeled as being more capable of hitting Western armour than the reverse as they are 1 size smaller. Certainly if fire involves moving a short distance to engage.

[DRG]

"Epoletov" had nothing to do with the lastest OOB changes beyond the occasional comment on the forums that was investigated just as yours are and I really wish you would spend at least 1 minute checking what you write as "Australia - There Abrams & only none USA version, error?" makes NO sense whatsoever. I cut non english speakers some slack but that's not the case here

Don

[Imp]

Was just going from memory
Aus unit 26 M1A1 AIM SA has 6 giro so possibly an error?
There may be other 6 giro units out there but these are all I know of as tend to look at when I buy to gauge capabilities.

[EpoletovSPR]

Originally Posted by Imp

I am wondering if modern Russian stuff is possibly to good cant find info on perhaps Epoletov could chip in think he did work on recent Russian OOB changes.

I have been very surprised and at that time flattered by attributing to me of such merits.
It is a pity, but it not so.

[DRG]

The Australian Abrams have had a full upgrade

Don

[Marcello]

T-80 I think has the bigger turret (if remember correctly) though still small by Western standards so if any has 6 would expect it to be T-80.

There is no positive correlation between turret size and stabilization performance; actually in principle a bigger, heavier turret should mean more momentum the servos would have to struggle against during a change of course.
AFAIK the most common modern configuration is that the sights are independently stabilized, since a piece of glass is light it is relatively easy to do, while the gun/turret stab working as they are against tons of mass try to keep up as well as they can. The computer accounts for the difference and actually witholds fire until the gun is properly aligned.

How did they keep pace with USA tech looking at military budgets over the last few years, in game Russia gets 6 giro 2 years before USA does.

This may be true in but only a "big picture" perspective. In practice the USA is not the world leader in every single category of military item and subsystem out there. There are areas, such as tube artillery and antiship missiles to make a couple of well known examples, where the US is either lagging behind or just barely keeping up. This happens because there are other factors which compensate for that (say, airpower) or they are not felt to be as important as something else because of doctrine or whatever.
The US was developing a world class self propelled artillery piece with the Crusader, but it was decided to terminate it in the attempt to develop something with better strategic mobility even if with lower performance. That did not work so the US Army is stuck with M109s, a early 60's design however upgraded it has been.
All along huge budgets were allocated, vast sums were spent and no actual hardware was ever issued.
Bottom line, it is perfectly plusible that the russians might have deployed a marginally better stabilizer system a bit earlier than the US (we aren't talking huge differences here) even if they can fling less money around, simply because they focused on it.
I vaguely recall to have read about T-90 stabilization parameters somewhere, but whether the data was accurate and similar data is available for late marks M1A2, God only knows I suspect.

[Marcello]

I have done some digging and found the following.

Leclerc
Source 1
medium error of stabilization: 0,1 mrad vertical - 0,1 mrad horizontal

Source 2
medium error of stabilization 0,15/0,20 mrad vertical - 0,3/0,4 mrad horizontal

Leopard 2A4
medium error of stabilization: 0,15/0,20 mrad vertical - 0,3/0,4 mrad horizontal

M1A1
medium error of stabilization: 0,15/0,20 mrad vertical - 0,3/0,4 mrad horizontal

T-90 (not specified which variant)
medium error of stabilization: 0,4 mrad vertical - 0,6 mrad horizontal

Pinch of salt applies.

[Marek_Tucan]

May I ask for sources? Also do they mantion older generation as well?

[Imp]

Hi Marcello was generalising with comment about military spending certainly bang for the buck think most countries do better than USA when it comes to R&D & sure Soviets have the edge or at least a diffrent way of doing things in some areas.
Giros might be one as despite I think inventing US lagged behind for a long time & Soviets placed emphasis on mobility. Still refiting/upgrading is I think questionable hence my comment perhaps majority should have 5 or even 4 but all speculation on my part as found no data. Mentioned as a lot of work went into Russian OOB a while back & its so easy to enter something wrong. For instance from memory T-80 UM Bars started as the upgraded version in present times its now the underdog to standard T-80 in game terms. This may be right without doing research but think Russia only produces a handfull of T-80s a year if sources are to be believed.

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by Marek_Tucan

May I ask for sources? Also do they mantion older generation as well?

Various Tanknet posters. Next week I will try to check if I can find the original sources, say sales brochures or whatever.

Giros might be one as despite I think inventing US lagged behind for a long time & Soviets placed emphasis on mobility.

That was common. A lot of western tanks of the 50's and 60's lacked stabilization as it was felt that stabilizers of that vintage were only partially useful. On the other hand most of them had optical rangefinders which the soviets lacked until early T-64s and T-72s.

Still refiting/upgrading is I think questionable hence my comment perhaps majority should have 5 or even 4 but all speculation on my part as found no data.

I am not saying that's wrong, in fact it is likely to be the case. I am saying that inferring such things from the "big picture" is, for a country like Russia, a tricky proposition. They can be quite good at engineering if they put themselves at it.

This may be right without doing research but think Russia only produces a handfull of T-80s a year if sources are to be believed

AFAIK T-80 production has been terminated. T-80s will be kept around and upgraded, but no new production.