Balance opinions

[quantum_mechani]

Since it looks like I will finally have some time to start updating the Conceptual Balance mod again, I thought it might be useful to get some general feedback from the community. In particular, I'm interested in knowing how many people are interested in balance mods, but are deterred by specific changes, lack of transparency, or simply being unaware of them.

[Ewierl]

Having played a few SP games and one MP game with CB mod up, I was generally pleased with the unit (and pretender) stat/cost changes and displeased with the magic/forging changes. The former felt like fixes and adjustments, while the latter often led to major strategic changes.

[CUnknown]

I clicked "...but outweigh any improvements" but I only meant that for items and nations mods. The others are great! I was debating whether to click the last or second to last one.

[Velusion]

I don't play the CB mods because of the amount of changes and the learning curve.

I finally feel fairly comfortable with vanilla Dom3 MP. The thought of playing CB where almost every stat/spell/monster has been changed is too much.

[quantum_mechani]

Velusion said:
I finally feel fairly comfortable with vanilla Dom3 MP. The thought of playing CB where almost every stat/spell/monster has been changed is too much.

Having been through almost all the stats/spells/monsters (and taking into account all the changes I've never gotten around to making), I can tell you CB hardly scratches the surface.

That said, it does make a great many changes, but I don't think the vast majority of these increase the learning curve. Very few people have memorized, for instance, the costs of units and spells not widely considered viable in MP, and that is where almost all the changes lie.

[Velusion]

quantum_mechani said:
That said, it does make a great many changes, but I don't think the vast majority of these increase the learning curve. Very few people have memorized, for instance, the costs of units and spells not widely considered viable in MP, and that is where almost all the changes lie.

I was exaggerating the amount changed by a little bit

Well the fact that lots of the non-viable MP strats have changed is a bit intimidating. I can sorta now identify strategies and counter strategies to certain builds/nations/plays - the fact that CB includes a bunch more viable alternative strategies (and counters to existing ones) means I would have a lot to learn.

That said I do think CB is more balanced than the vanilla game and well done. I just don't have the time to play/learn it

[Jazzepi]

Velusion said:
I don't play the CB mods because of the amount of changes and the learning curve.

I finally feel fairly comfortable with vanilla Dom3 MP. The thought of playing CB where almost every stat/spell/monster has been changed is too much.

Same here.

Jazzepi

[quantum_mechani]

This was actually another issue I had in mind with the poll, that I should have separated out from the better documentation option. Or perhaps it is a better fit with 'specific issues' since I get the feeling that most people with this opinion have tried it, found a particular strategy that is made more difficult by CB, and then become intimidated by the list of other changes. The way CB should work, however, is that anything viable base game should still work, with any additional strategies made viable being tried out at one's leisure. A few changes (such as the one to dwarven hammers), have perhaps gotten away from this and that is the sort of thing I am looking to polish.

[djo]

I chose "...too much hassle" for the reasons given above: too many changes to absorb. I'm not worried about most of them; I don't mind the minor changes, and I like the boosts that encourage variety (eg, I like being able to use the drakes).

What gets me are the dozen or so "gotcha's", like when you forget that a key path booster has jumped a level and you can't reach it anymore. Or when a key unit is changed enough to be strategy-changing. They come up very infrequently, but they are frustrating when they do.

I would also like better documentation, but the current docs aren't too bad.

[quantum_mechani]

Indy commanders are actually an example, along with boosters and hammers, of nerfs I've been convinced to retract or reduce.

I'm well aware of the great backlash that often generated by nerfing, so believe it or not I have employed it quite sparingly (certainly much less than IW would have had they focused more on balance, virtually all of the balance changes from dom2 to dom3 were nerfs). Further minimization is always open to consideration though.

As for drastically reducing the number of total changes, that is much less likely. The end goal is to bring all options into viability, and in a lot of cases that means incrementally improving them until they hit a usable but not abusable level. So, if there are useless boosts, I could easily be convinced to increased them, but not remove them.