Normandy 1944

IronDuke99 · #1 January 24th, 2017, 12:46 PM

One of the things that I think gets overlooked is how very powerful Allied Naval gunfire was in Normandy in 1944.

A 15inch naval gun could fire at ranges up to almost 22 miles -ie, twice as far inland as Caen- and warships (no matter what crap World of Warships might come out with) all carried HE rounds. A large calibre Warship HE round was a very fearsome thing that could flip even a Tiger tank on its back.

Most of the Normandy battles in June and July should feature Naval Gun Fire Support on the Allied side. In fact it was a major deciding factor in the German's pulling back from close to the coast.

In contrast Allied aircraft were not as effective as they thought they were against German armour. At the time even the American Army Air Force thought that RAF rocket firing Typhoons were the best Allied air force tank busters. Research, after the war, showed they were much less effective than the Air Forces thought they were (when on earth as that ever happened!) Most of those eight, unguided, rockets simply missed... Allied air power was mostly effective against soft vehicles, very unfortunate horses and trains, rather than AFV's.

A Panzer Lehr Division Commander gives a long list of losses to Allied air attacks, over days, that include a whole five tanks...

DRG · #2 January 24th, 2017, 02:11 PM

you hit hexes with tanks in them with naval gunfire in the game and they are, at the very least, NOT HAPPY.hit them a couple turns in a row and they are even less happy

IronDuke99 · #3 January 24th, 2017, 02:15 PM

Agreed, but I think you could make a fairly strong case for reducing Allied air force anti armour effects and increasing Naval gun fire effects.

IronDuke99 · #4 February 5th, 2017, 05:27 AM

So I ran a test:

One company of SS Tiger tanks in the open and deployed closely together, not dug in.

One the other side, 10 spotter aircraft, one RN 16in Battleship, two RN 15inch Battleship, one RN 14 inch Battleship, one RN 8inch Heavy Cruiser.

Game set to max visibility. Artillery set to 175%. Game length 39 turns.

Result: 1 Tiger destroyed. 1 Tiger immobilised. 1 Tiger retreating and 2 Tigers buttoned up.

I think that is a bit weak given the naval firepower used...

DRG · #5 February 5th, 2017, 02:08 PM

something to investigate next year NOT a month before a patch release. It's important to remember these naval bombardments went on longer than normally players give them in the game. One or two turns...6 minutes of gunfire means nothing. Hit the area for 10 turns then let me know what the result is

IronDuke99 · #6 February 5th, 2017, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRG

something to investigate next year NOT a month before a patch release. It's important to remember these naval bombardments went on longer than normally players give them in the game. One or two turns...6 minutes of gunfire means nothing. Hit the area for 10 turns then let me know what the result is

The example of my test was a bombardment, and nothing but a bombardment, for the whole game length, ie, 39 turns, with artillery set at 175%. At the end the area all around the tanks was nothing but shell holes, yet it merely destroyed one and immobilised another.

Was not suggesting it needs to be changed right now, given all the other stuff relating to the next patch going on. I'm sure you have more than enough to do.

Mobhack · #7 February 26th, 2017, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronDuke99

So I ran a test:

One company of SS Tiger tanks in the open and deployed closely together, not dug in.

One the other side, 10 spotter aircraft, one RN 16in Battleship, two RN 15inch Battleship, one RN 14 inch Battleship, one RN 8inch Heavy Cruiser.

Game set to max visibility. Artillery set to 175%. Game length 39 turns.

Result: 1 Tiger destroyed. 1 Tiger immobilised. 1 Tiger retreating and 2 Tigers buttoned up.

I think that is a bit weak given the naval firepower used...

A tiger 1 tank company deployed close together, delay scenario with V-hexes German so they dont move other than in rout.

One observer in front of them, the HQ deployed with a view to the rear of the pack. 2 battleships bought, scenario length 30. Gold spot in the middle of the pack to speed things up.

All values at default - i.e. no pumping up of artillery values.

Test 1 - 2 destroyed, 1-2 abandoned, 50% of the company disabled, 2 rout off map.

Test 2 - 4 destroyed, one routed off map, one damaged and in process of being chased by 15 inch (at 0.1 to adjust for an observer with LOS you can chase a routed tigger!

) and all others disabled and abandoned by crews, 2 crew surviving at turn 30.

Observations -
The battleships were using 15 inch HE. HE is not good for piercing armour (pen is 9, tigers are generally at least 8 armour on rear and flanks). Even with the occasional bonus for warhead size, they aren't going to slay tigers willy-nilly.

Your test scenario seems to have been unobserved fire(?) - use of random spotter planes and plotting by the A0 who did not have eyes on target?. Unobserved fires are far less concentrated since the rounds tend to land all over the place. But this test scenario was firing into a dust cloud by round 2 or 3 due to shell dust thrown up.

With blast radius set to "on" you could see that most of the shells would strike about half the company with an orange circle showing a hit that at least suppressed the tank.

By about turn 6-8 about half the company was usually hors de combat - damaged, track blown off, and often in retreat or rout with no tracks, leading to abandonment. The remainder of the 30 turns was moving shell fire to try to hit surviving tanks in smoke, so often drifted off intended point of aim.

Battleship fire does do a lot of damage, especially (as with all artillery) if given time to work the targets over. Even on tiger 1s, which will endure where say panzer 4s would be reduced to scrap much earlier.

But battleship HE rounds are NOT Maverick anti-tank missiles.

FASTBOAT TOUGH · #8 February 26th, 2017, 08:06 PM

Sounds like real life Anzio to me. Couldn't resist when I saw the topic. The following ships exploits in this discussion area are well known to me from my Naval background and history studies.
http://iainballantyne.com/hms-rodney...-hms-rodney-2/

Good topic and good advice about FOO. Many refs. would say or suggest on this topic the importance of these missions coordinated with a naval FOO or other in the success of the mission against armor etc. Andy's test and therefore the game itself represents exactly what history has already shown.

Regards,
Pat

Imp · #9 February 5th, 2017, 06:52 AM

How often did you hit them with consecutive bombardments?
On normal artillery settings, if hit hard in the open it is possible to cause retreat or even abandonment, I think damage may be required first for the later.
Can surprise you though Remember hitting one tank with a good wallop of artillery over a couple of turns & it still returned fire & took out my tank with a low to hit chance. Heavily pinned it could only get off one shot with its main armament which just happened to hit.
I realise what you are saying a big shell could flip a tank but how often did it land close enough to actualy do so.
While artillery was a major killer I would be intrestead to know how many rounds were fired per kill.
Do agree but we have had this debate so many times a big shell landing close to armor can have a devastating effect.

IronDuke99 · #10 February 5th, 2017, 06:59 AM

The hexes the Tanks were in were all hit repeatedly. No tank moved at all except the one that retreated (fairly early on). Also note I had Artillery set at 175% (as I normally do for WWII actions).

This was four Battleships and a Heavy Cruiser, with spotter aircraft, firing at a single, highly exposed, company of German tanks, not dug in, in close (ie, in adjoining hexes)order, a near ideal target.