Comparison of Knights

[tinkthank]

In a post a while ago asking about Tien Chi, the thread moved towards an analysis of heavy cav / knight type units, the upshot of which that many people said that the Red Guard is a very very nice unit, one of the best around.

I've got a few questions about this, especially regarding the units: Van, Red Guards, Knights of the Chalice, and I have tossed in the Knights of Avalon and Black Knights for the heck of it.

My main questions include:
1. Why is the K of the Chalice so expensive?
2. Does anyone else feel the Van to be the "winner" (for its price and availability)?
3. I really don't think the Red Guard is *that* great -- do you?

(I'd like to put in a little chart displaying their info, but after 3 tries I cant get it to format correctly. It's at the bottom of this post (in unpleasing form)).

By just looking at the units out of context (which is of course silly, but that is what a unit comparison does I suppose), it seems to me that the Van comes out on top.
You can get the Van *anywhere*, not just in your capital. For 70 gold, it is amongst the cheapest, and it is sacred for half upkeep (and bless effects). It has the best MR of all, which I find to be of extreme importance, more and more the later in the game one gets. Its only weaknesses seem to be its relatively low protection and morale. When one considers, however, that it has an 18 defense and *glamour* (yikes), I find that more than makes up for its low protection. And I have never had morale problems with Vans, perhaps too because I almost always have at least 1 priestly type around (they are sacred too).
To top it all off, they are amongst the most stealthy units in the game. Coupled with the ability to make them in any castle anywhere and their *exceedingly low* resource cost, you can get quite where you want them with no problems. Additionally, it is surpassed in speed only by the Knights of Avalon.
I think the Van wins hands down.
`
Which brings me to the Red Guard, which has a similar cost, except that it requires more than double the resources. And it is available in the home capital *only*. In fact, its "normal" stats are inferior to the Van's in every single facet except morale and a tiny increase in protection: slower, more costly, less HP, less MR, less str, less attack skill, less defense. And of course it has neither glamour or other special abilities.

So why the hubbub about the Red Guard? Yes of course the context makes it important: you get it in addition to all those nice bowmen etc. But I still think the Red Guard comes out Last except for Ulm. I think the Red Guard is a bit weak, just looking at the Van.

Not much can compare with a Knight of Avalon, except that you must pay quite a bit to get it, and it is home province only. In addition to high MR, it is the fastest unit of all. In addition to all its wonderful stats, which really dont seem to be lacking in anything, it has recuperation. Its only "problem" is its sanctity, or lack thereof.

That is the only thing which the Knight of the Chalice has going for it in this league, it seems to me. It has similar stats to the KofAvalon, except lower MR and much slower speed. What do you think of this unit for its price?

In general, it seems to me as if the Van is just way too scary for its price and non-captial-availability. I would like to see Vans cost a bit more. I'd also like to see the Red Guard either cost a bit less or have some increased bonuses of some sort.

Thanks for listening and replying!

Van Man Ulm Tien Marig

hp 13 14 15 10 14
prot 13 20 24 15 20
moral 12 15 15 15 15
MR 14 13 9 12 12
str 11 12 13 10 12
attk 12 12 12 12 13
def 18 16 9 14 14
move 3/26 3/30 2/18 2/20 2/20

gold 70 85 60 70 90
res 16 61 70 42 61
sac yes no no yes yes
home no yes no yes yes

spec glam recup

You should add the Centaur Cataphract. It is very cheap, has 20hp, can be build everywhere and has recuperation (like the knight of avalon) but no lance.
Well, if money is not a problem, the Van is clearly the best OMHO.
Cheers

[LDiCesare]

I'm not very experienced, but I don't like the red guards. (I don't like Tien Chi a lot).
Vans are powerful but their low protection means they are far easier to get rid of than the others with spells and arrows or bolts, against which defense doesn't help. They are still very powerful.

[Yossar]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
1. Why is the K of the Chalice so expensive?

Because it's sacred, so should be better than the non sacred knights, and overall, it's better than the other two sacred knights. Better protection, str, and HP than the red guard and the Van doesn't get a lance.

2. Does anyone else feel the Van to be the "winner" (for its price and availability)?

It doesn't get a lance so it's hard to even put it in the same class as a knight. That first strike of armor piercing damage can be really nice. But it's still a good unit.

All of the units have their pros and cons. I don't see any glaring problems with them, but maybe someone more experienced would.

[Endoperez]

Originally posted by tinkthank:

code:

---

  

     Van     Man     Ulm     Tien     Marig



hp      13      14      15      10      14

prot	13	20	24	15	20

moral	12	15	15	15	15

MR	14	13	9	12	12

str	11	12	13	10	12

attk	12	12	12	12	13

 

---

Code-tags do wonders. Although I don't understand why hp-column needs so many spaces...

I haven't tried Vanir with bless effects of DomII, but with something like Blood-6, Fire-6 of Dom:PPP they were quite good... They can't kill off heavily armored units, like the knights, but their high defence keeps them alive for quite a long time.

[ April 21, 2004, 13:20: Message edited by: Endoperez ]

[reverend]

Maybe I over-read it, but you didn't include the Black Knight in your analysis of the stats.

Black Knights are my favoured heavy cavalry. They have superior protection, HP and strength. Their weakness is their slow speed, but in combination with the overall slow Ulm army, it doesn't usually show. MR is an issue, and possibly low defense. They, however, do have the first-strike of the lance. Gold costs are the lowest of all heavy cavalry, but like all Ulm troops they need a lot of resources. Compared to (esp.) Van or Tien, this is a major drawback if you are in an area without many high-res provinces. The difference to Man and Marignon is negligible as the difference in gold is larger.

That said, I have worse experiences with all kinds of heavy cavalry than I had with Black Knights. Man heavy cavalry and Marignon specifically. I typically use a small group of Knights for expansion in the beginning, and while I always loose some with Man or Marignon, I have yet to loose Black Knights during that phase. Then again, that may be just the "Ulm heavy armor" factor against Independents.

[ April 21, 2004, 15:48: Message edited by: reverend ]