Large Caliber High Explosive....

[Djuice]

It's been documented in WW2 that Soviet assault guns like the SU-152 and ISU-152 were sometimes used as heavy TDs. It's been reported that 152mm HE rounds were capable of defeating German heavy tanks quite reliably, due to the sheer kinectic and explosive energy of the 152mm HE round. Even if it did not penetrate the armor of said tank, it would of done considerable amount of external damage, not to mention lethal amount of spalling inside the vehicle.

Yet in SPWW2 it doesn't seem so, I've used a ISU-152(Unit 746) against a Panzer IV(h)(Unit 036), I fired 20 HE rounds @ about 1,000m (20 hexes), about 12 hits, scoring sometimes 4 pen, but most of the time 0 pen, and I did score once 6 pen on it's hull which unfortunately wasn't able to take it out.

Is the game suppose to assume that HE rounds from large caliber guns ineffective against armored targets? If so is there some way to rectify it?

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Djuice

It's been documented in WW2 that Soviet assault guns like the SU-152 and ISU-152 were sometimes used as heavy TDs. It's been reported that 152mm HE rounds were capable of defeating German heavy tanks quite reliably, due to the sheer kinectic and explosive energy of the 152mm HE round. Even if it did not penetrate the armor of said tank, it would of done considerable amount of external damage, not to mention lethal amount of spalling inside the vehicle.

Yet in SPWW2 it doesn't seem so, I've used a ISU-152(Unit 746) against a Panzer IV(h)(Unit 036), I fired 20 HE rounds @ about 1,000m (20 hexes), about 12 hits, scoring sometimes 4 pen, but most of the time 0 pen, and I did score once 6 pen on it's hull which unfortunately wasn't able to take it out.

Is the game suppose to assume that HE rounds from large caliber guns ineffective against armored targets? If so is there some way to rectify it?

You were just unlucky. Large calibre HE will disassemble armoured targets. It's the large WH size which drives the HE AP factor. Usually though, it tends to blow their tracks off (which can lead to unhappy tankers).

Especially good is a bunch of tanks in the same or next hex as a target for such a beast, since the blast effect will share the joy with the target's neighbours.

See the APCALC programme - best HE result on armour for a 152mm is about 11, and I have definitely put some hurt on a tiger with a KV1. (I like to have the good old KV1 as a support tank in the core - usually the coy HQ of my company HQ gets changed to one - and do not upgrade it to an ISU-152 later since the KV has a turret - so if it gets stuck it can still engage, if it has LOS). I do tend to change it to an ISU-122 with the long gun at the end of the war. That one has a decent ammo supply whereas the IS2 tanks have short pockets.

Cheers
Andy

[Djuice]

I've tried it again, and yes, I did manage to get a 11 Pen once, in like 40+ hits, which is amazingly low odds.

For about 40 hits I think the break up was:

Non-Pen = 17 times
0 Pen = 9 times
2-8 Pen = 14 times or so

Most of the time it did pen and it wasn't a 0, it was 6. Though the Non-Pen seems to be quite frequent. About a 1/3 of the times it hits. Which is quite frustrating.

[gila]

Originally Posted by Djuice

Yet in SPWW2 it doesn't seem so, I've used a ISU-152(Unit 746) against a Panzer IV(h)(Unit 036), I fired 20 HE rounds @ about 1,000m (20 hexes), about 12 hits, scoring sometimes 4 pen, but most of the time 0 pen, and I did score once 6 pen on it's hull which unfortunately wasn't able to take it out.

You did not mention wether you are moving these beasts prior to firing,soviet accy really sucks bad when on the move.
I guess that may relate to how experience they had when fielded quickly without much training.
Since the SU on the move, has no turret,it lose any advantage against a Panther or Tiger setting still.
Going for a face off battle against the germans late war will cause you to lose many tanks
The upside is you can buy more in the later stage of WW2 at cheaper cost than Gerry,
Quanity vs quality if used right will prevail.

[Djuice]

I don't really mind the hit ratio, I am more concerned about the HE penetration from large caliber rounds. When the rounds do hit on average 40-50% of the time it does absolutely nothing. Which is my main gripe, as I'm sure getting hit with a 152mm 40kg+ projectile @ 600mps/2000fps is gonna hurt no matter what vehicle you are in. Which is currently not very representative in this game due to the way HE functions on class6/7 weapons.

[void1984]

SP: World at War version can result in a crew unconscious event lasting 1-2 turns.

[Imp]

Pretty sure this game sometimes kills a crewman or two vehicle otherwise unharmed.

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by Imp

Pretty sure this game sometimes kills a crewman or two vehicle otherwise unharmed.

A "*" result may result in a crewman kill, and/or a weapon mount being destroyed. It is a penetration that did not totally destroy the vehicle. If the crew kill is the last man inside - it dies.

If it does a track hit, or an engine hit (same end result - vehicle can no longer move) - then there is usually a "*" result applied as well.

Cumulative "*" results on a vehicle act the same way as kills on a rifle section - they are damage points and reduce total shots available and base suppression/morale levels for the vehicle.

Large calibre HE hits may appear to "do nothing" to the player, but may well result in enough suppression to stun the vehicle (no effective shots, or perhaps only a few MG bursts available), or put it into retreat or rout status (which is easily detected by holding the mouse over the target - SP series games generally give you "perfect information" on your enemy).

However, HE anti-armour effects in the game have been reduced from the original SSI formula a long time back. In SP1 KVs slaughtered German armour (and German Sigs returned the favour!)- whether it was the target or those in the same hex and adjacent ones - 2 or 3 hexes away with 15cm guns. Our HE penetration code requires "over penetration" for HE fire to have any significant effect. In Steel Panthers III, the most effective way to kill M1 Abrams was to use mortars on them - 60mm would do the trick. In SP III, due to the fact that each unit was a platoon, track-damaged tanks were simply deleted.

But anyway - now a 15cm gun on a tiger can get 11 HE Pen, but depending on the face hit on a tiger, that could be no over-penetration (those faces of 12), or maybe 3 (Side 8 from 11). 3 Over-penetration by HE is not a great deal, but may only get a "*" if lucky. (If you were a little halftrack, then it swings way the other way of course!).

A blast hit (as opposed to a direct hit) also gets its HE PEN effects discounted, and that is further discounted as range from the blast hex increases (unlike the original SSI code, whereby a 15cm hit at 0 hexes had the same effect on another tank 3 hexes away).

So basically, large calibre HE is not a great tank killer in the Camo versions. It can be used to drive away armour due to the suppressive effects, but to reliably kill tigers it is advisable to shoot AP ammo at them. ISUs do have access to AP ammo - and due to the large WH size, the AP effect is kept for a longer range.

Observe the figures for weapon 81 in the USSR in APCalc. Base AP is reliable v Tiger I frontally to 550 metres (assuming armour class 12). However, due to the contribution of its high WH size, it can get larger penetrations when it gets lucky and all its "ducks are in a row" so to speak - all the way out to 4 kilometres.

So a battery of "Boyevoi" (especially if backed up with some komsolets armoured ammo carriers) really should try lobbing 6-inch AP bricks onto tigers presenting 2+ km away. Low hit probability, low chance of a kill, but when it happens, it's well worth it !. And if they only have HE left - then there is still a small chance of doing something nasty as well. A "*" side turret result that wipes a tigers main gun is still good stuff.

Personally, when I buy an (I)SU-152 in the core, I go for the HE-only versions though. The HE ammo does have a suppressive effect on the large cats, worth firing it in platoon salvos if you happen to see one. But they are really there to cause mayhem to the soft stuff. So I would rather have the version with 7 more HE in the racks than the AP.

The 152mm then keep the tigers buttoned up, while the blast from the big HE bricks coincidentally swipes away any accompanying infantry within 2-3 hexes. Then the T-34s can eventually charge the stunned cats and deliver a coup-de grace sabot round from 50m into the side with high confidence that there is no longer any infantry nearby in any state to hinder them.

Cheers
Andy

[Djuice]

Thanks for the explaination and reply Andy.

[Djuice]

What's the chance for non-penetrating hits from HE/AP class6/7 weapons?

Right now I am experiencing about 25-28% chance that a round will hit, but with cause a Non-Penetrating Effect, sometimes it will immobilize the target, but most of the time, it has no effect. Is it suppose to be that high?