Intelligence ops - Page 2

Slick · #11 December 10th, 2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cyrien:
That isn't always true. The "any" technology will quite often fail as it tries to steal a technology you already have. While a specific tech theft will generally work out better since you probably chose a tech they have that you don't. But if you don't then it still fails because you have the tech...

The "any" or specific does not affect the chances of the success or failure of the intelligence op. This is in response to the question about chances of success. Chances of success are only dependent on the defender having enough CI. If he has enough CI to stop the attack, the chance of success is 0%. If he doesn't the chance of success is 100% for all except PPP which *I think* is 50%.

As you state, for the Crew Insurrection project, this decision can affect your actually getting something useful or not, but this was not the question. And you are right that it is often better to target newer models.

Slick.

Parasite · #12 December 10th, 2003, 08:41 PM

I am currently in an Intel battle (with an AI) I capture 5-6 ships a turn, but one project always fails from counter intel. I don't know if you need 100% of the CI, I think you just need some points, but any attacks after the CI is gone are not stopped. He only has one system, so I suspect his CI is lower than the 50K of ship capture. Yet he still stops one attack a turn.

Cyrien · #13 December 10th, 2003, 09:02 PM

There are few thing as satisfying as getting a failed ship takeover intel project because they have no more ships to takeover. Destroying or taking over all of an AIs ships without having ever sent one of your ships into their space, ahhh how sweet is that.

Slick · #14 December 10th, 2003, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Parasite:
I am currently in an Intel battle (with an AI) I capture 5-6 ships a turn, but one project always fails from counter intel. I don't know if you need 100% of the CI, I think you just need some points, but any attacks after the CI is gone are not stopped. He only has one system, so I suspect his CI is lower than the 50K of ship capture. Yet he still stops one attack a turn.

He does need to block 50K, but he doesn't actually need to be generating 50K from his facilities. From the FAQ:

10.1.7 CI projects get a 20% bonus and higher levels of CI projects get a multiplier as follows. 1000 points put into CI projects yield: 1000 x 120% (defense bonus) = 1200 defensive points.
CI1: 1200 x 1 = 1200
CI2: 1200 x 2 = 2400
CI3: 1200 x 3 = 3600 (Suicide Junkie)

Therefore, if he had CI3, he would only need to have 13889 points per turn to block 50000. [50000 * (1000/3600) = 13889]

Also, he could be getting some more intel points from a partnership treaty with another empire.

[edit: typpo]

Slick.

[ December 10, 2003, 19:07: Message edited by: Slick ]

AMF · #15 December 11th, 2003, 02:16 AM

Here's a related question: does an intel project (say food contamination) get a negative to its chance of success if the target is "any planet" - as compared to setting a known target?

thanks,

Alarik

Roanon · #16 December 11th, 2003, 07:41 AM

CouterIntel is just too powerful - as is Intel, if it succeeds. The whole system is just not good

.
This formula is the reason why you cannot succeed with intel "with a simple 400k to 600k points against 100k to 200k where most people stop".
You need about double or triple that amount, unless your enemies are AI or very dumb. 200k are more than enough to completely stop 600k, not to mention the stored points in ongoing CI projects that have to be worn down first. And there should be plenty stored CI points because what else can you do with intel points other than storing lots of them during peacetime.

Fyron · #17 December 11th, 2003, 08:19 AM

How about a mod that drops the max storage of CI down a lot, so you get the affect of only being able to defend with what you can produce?

Alneyan · #18 December 11th, 2003, 10:24 AM

Not to mention that having three times as many intelligence points as your opponent is usually not possible, unless you maxed cunning while all the other Empires minimized this characteristic. And then you would have a lot of problems in other fields, and you would still have to bypass the CI already stored. Good luck to you for you will need it.

Narratio · #19 December 11th, 2003, 10:40 AM

Must agree with Roanon. Intel is a fine defensive weapon but, unless you're up against AI's, forget it. Use the space for Research instead.

Slick · #20 December 11th, 2003, 05:00 PM

I also agree that the intel model could use an overhaul. But let's not forget that intel should be kept somewhat muffled so that games aren't decided by it. SE4 is about ships and fleets being the most powerful part of the game backed by a strong economy. Intel could and should play a vital role but not so much as to nerf ships and fleets. "4X and 1I" just doesn't have the same ring to it...

Slick.

[ December 11, 2003, 15:01: Message edited by: Slick ]