patch 2.08 is out

[velk]

The optional coup de grace rule for AD&D is just for conveniences sake in fights - do you really want to have to roll 40 attack rounds against an immobile opponent when the outcome is inevitable ?

Use of it is tempered by GM common sense though. Having some level 1 mage melee a tarrasque to death with a scrollcase in one combat round because he paralyzed it is so inherently ludicrous that only an idiot GM would go with that outcome.

It's like saying a guy with a hammer wins a fight with mount everest because it can't fight back.

[Johan K]

Originally posted by josh_f:
N?got gick fel!
sprnbr too high for this file
N?got gick fel!
sprnbr too high for this file
Abort trap

Thank you! Now could you also check the size of your army8.trs and res.trs files in bytes. They are located in dominions2.app/Contents/Resources.

[SurvivalistMerc]

Velk,
I agree that the optional coup de grace rules in AD&D should be tempered with common sense. Of course, the mage might just have a dagger with him...that's a common purchase for L1 magi. And the AD&D golems required magical weapons to hit, which of course I addressed in a prior post. You are correct...the golem would not be slain without magical weapons even if it were paralyzed. Of course, let's remember that NT Jedi's example was that of a red dragon.

The explanations offered by Pillin and Aikamun make sense to me. Because let's face it...thousands of folks in the province. Even if they run away in fear a few times, they can always come back the next day and help some more. After all, it is a whole month.

Norfleet,
Most units have better weapons than forks or herrings. And I would count all the units able to reach the creature in question after it becomes helpless with no defenders. Not just those still around at turn 50.

NT Jedi,
Even folks who take your side in this discussion of what should happen to paralyzed supercombatants...some of these folks side with me on the red dragon issue. They could gouge out its eyes or slit its throat. Keep in mind that level of experience (unless magical items are present) doesn't have anything to do with the damage done per attack in AD&D, though it may increase the number of attacks you receive per combat round.
The devs have decided to kill these paralyzed creatures, and I agree with them. Paralyze should be less effective now, which I'm sure will make you a bit happier with regard to the survivability of your supercombatants.

Norfleet,
I don't think the present rules truly account for "helplessness." Protection still remains, in my opinion, too effective a counter to blows once one is paralyzed. And I think you know how effective protection is in this game. If your protection is significantly greater than your opponents' damage plus strength, you will rarely take damage. While that makes sense before you are paralyzed, I think it makes less sense, except possibly in the case of immobile hunks of rock, once you are helpless with no defenders. Defense skill of zero isn't really sufficient to model helplessness. Because the helpless creature's armor can be removed...it can't prevent that. The magical accourtrements can likewise be removed...it can't prevent that. And small chinks in spell protection could also be removed or dispelled by skilled magi. (One thing we don't have in Dom 2 that I think would be neat is a form of "dispel magic.")
You have a point with regard to the protection spells which damage attackers. And my answer that they are countered may not prove satisfactory to you because there is no such counter in the game mechanics. Of course...what is possible once one is helpless with regard to enchantments should be different than what is possible if one is hale and moving about the battlefield.

Graeme Dice,
Paralyzation under this system does not become as good as soul slay. The autokill does not go into effect until the unit is helpless and without any defenders whatsoever. Soul slay can slay units even if defenders are present on the battlefield. For paralysis to be as effective, the side using the paralysis must win the battle. Soul slay will kill units even without winning the battle. I view that difference as significant.

The unit itself counts. You specified a spellcasting sphinx. My scenario would not say that a spellcasting sphinx is helpless unless it were paralyzed or otherwise rendered helpless. If they don't move from their fortresses, as in patch 2.08, then choosing a fortress with defenders would render the sphinx always non-helpless. Same goes for the head. However, if a soulless has a month to rip apart a helpless sphinx...well, that soulless must have undead leadership or it wouldn't be on the battlefield at all. So the soulless and its undead leader slowly manage to chip away at the head of the sphinx, not sleeping because they are undead and require no sleep, over a period of an entire Calendar month, thereby expelling the vile spirit that inhabited the sphinx into the void.

[Pillin]

Now your just beeing stubborn NTJedi, do you really think there are noone in a whole province that can kill your splendid... um statue Your protection spells wont Last all that long after the battle and then its just a simple matter of putting you off a cliff or something.

[josh_f]

Originally posted by Johan K:
Thank you! Now could you also check the size of your army8.trs and res.trs files in bytes. They are located in dominions2.app/Contents/Resources.

army8.trs 292 KB
res.trs 76.KB

I also redownloaded the patch to no affect.

[ February 17, 2004, 15:58: Message edited by: Gandalf Parker ]

[fahdiz]

I know the answer to this question is always "When it's done", but I am curious if there is any estimated timeline on the Utgard fix, and whether it will wait for patch 2.09 or be released in a "mini-patch" (2.08a, for example) just to address that one issue.

Thanks for reading and for all the GREAT changes and improvements in 2.08; I know you Illwinter folk are as busy as a one-legged man in an arse-kicking contest.

[NTJedi]

Originally posted by Pillin:
Now your just beeing stubborn NTJedi, do you really think there are noone in a whole province that can kill your splendid... um statue Your protection spells wont Last all that long after the battle and then its just a simple matter of putting you off a cliff or something.

Again another bizarre response.

First they werent spells... they were items... so yeah it would Last. Second the 'cause fear' was from death magic and the helm means very few citizen/farmers would be brave enough to attack/move the paralyzed titan especialy since they don't know how long before he will wake up!!

Pillin the citizen munchkins are farmers and citizens not fighters.
AND what about the provinces which have ZERO population... that BLOWS your theory dead too.


==========
SurvivalistMerc I was always under the impression Ancient Red Dragons could only be harmed by magical weapons... so a knife or sword in the eye would not cause any harm.
The devs have decided to kill these paralyzed creatures because they needed a way to stop combat from being stuck in a forever loop. The solution used: Auto-kill all units after X amount of turns is wrong. The unit should be allowed to wake-up and flee... not die .

[ February 17, 2004, 18:12: Message edited by: NTJedi ]

[SurvivalistMerc]

NT Jedi,

Under the original rules through I believe the first AD&D revision, magical weapons were not necessary to harm Ancient red dragons.

After Gygax left TSR, the company has continually re-published numerous rules for AD&D. And I have stopped buying the newer publications. Your original point was that you played numerous TBS, RPG, and other games and you were not aware of any other situation in which paralyzation meant death. I have shown you one. I do not speak of any of the "new" rules more than a few years after Gygax's departure because I consider most of those to just be rewriting the rules for purposes of selling additional rulebooks and making more money by doing so...the game was perfectly good in its original rendition judging from its popularity at the time. (I don't intend to get into a discussion of what Version of AD&D you prefer...all of the old AD&D players will confirm that you didn't need magical weapons to kill the original dragons.)

My mechanism of death does not rely on farmers. And even under current rules, if you can defeat or cause the retreat of all opponents by turn 50 then you will win the battle.

I like the fact that paralyze works to effectively counter supercombatants. Something has to. If you take away paralyze, much of the game will come down to duels of supercombatants.

[NTJedi]

The problem is specifically that :
the game auto-kills units after X amount of turns during combat. That is wrong.

Paralyzation is just an effect which causes this to happen. Its one of the variables involved.

Any one of the three variables can be changed to fix this design flaw.

[Taqwus]

Items can be removed, spells wear off, and fear is not nearly as powerful as NT Jedi seems to think it is; it takes even militia quite a while to figure out that poking at the Doom Horror isn't the best idea, and Doom Horrors are a lot more fearful than a mere +2.