Vanheim Pretenders: Allfather and Asynya

[Cohen]

This topic is about those 2 pretenders.

They're both unique for Vanheim ... but I see Vanheim playing only with Odin Allfather ...

The Asynya is pretty themathic, but I've never seen it ...

I don't play usually Vanheim, but I suppose or Allfather is too strong compared to Asynya (well I believe for 125 points, he's very cheap, or at least he has good stats combined with a mid-low new path cost), even if Asynya costs 50 points less, she hasn't glamour, hide, fly, has a single starting path with a new path cost of 50 compared to 30 of Allfather.
And Allfather is starting with an affliction, that can be healed, so its base stats will raise too in late game.

[Tuidjy]

RIGHT! Allfather is too strong! He is beating
up my poor Vampire Queen in her own domain, so
he is OBVIOUSLY too strong. NERF THE BASTARD!

NERF! NERF! NERF!!!!!

WHAAAAAAHHHHH!

Ahhh... Let me catch my breath before I start
calling for nerfing Nataraja, because once we
get rid of the Allfather, he is next.

Or is it the ghost king, the carrion dragon, or...

[ June 02, 2004, 01:14: Message edited by: Tuidjy ]

[Vynd]

Now now, Tuidjy, be fair... He didn't actually say that the Allfather should be made weaker. Just that he's way better than the Asynya. I can't remember the Asynya's stats well enough to judge how right Cohen is. But I don't know how much it really matters. There are lots of nations where one of the national pretenders is better than the other. And there are plenty of non-national pretenders that are as good or better than most of the national pretenders.

Now if Cohen wants to argue that the Asynya is so bad, for its cost, that there's never a reason to use her as opposed to the other options, that'd be a little different.

[Tuidjy]

In one corner we have Odin Allfather, who traded
his eye for knowledge, who, astride Sleipnir,
will lead the Aesir on Ragnarok. The top dog of
one of the greatest and best known pantheons,
about whom more stories are told every day.

In the other corner, we have Asynya. The, ah,
well, another Aesir. No, not the Catholic
saint... someone else. Very.... uh, thematic!

Whom do I chose... Decisions, decisions :-)

[PvK]

I think Asynya is plenty good. She looks like a slightly better fighter than the Allfather, and the usual retarded logic is that everyone needs an SC pretender or they are doomed (not that I buy that, but oh well). If you want a pretender with Air and maybe another path who also fights well, she looks good, and saves points compared to Allfather. Allfather has some other abilities and can have more paths for less, though. Apples and oranges, allfathers and asynyas...

They might be more popular since so many people have a secret inner desire to be Odin...

PvK

[Norfleet]

Well, I don't think I've ever seen anyone pick one. To be honest, it doesn't seem to fill any new niche: It's an air-2 semi-SC, with relatively poor path flexibility when compared to Odin. If you're trying to build an SC, Odin can actually be built more cheaply due to his less expensive paths, despite his base cost. Odin's host of innate abilities also tilts the scale in his favor. If she shared the Allfather's Glamour ability, she'd be a contender for the same role, only on foot instead of mounted, and thus retaining a feet slot, but she doesn't have this - even then, without flying, the feet slot would wind up being used for that, and she isn't as immune to armor encumberance as the Allfather, due to not being mounted.

Obviously, therefore, Odin outclasses the Asynja in the SC department.

As a blessing or high-air chassis, on the other hand, we compare the Asynja to the Titan, which is also available, for 125 points. A quick review of the numbers, however, reveals that the Titan can actually provide the Air-9 blessing at LOWER cost than the Asynja. Both are capable of combat, although in this configuration, neither is really a tweaked super-SC. The Titan also has the benefit of being lightning-immune, which is a fairly nice bonus for an SC, as lightning is really quite painful, and the Titan can indiscriminately fling shockwaves and commit acts of Wrathing without worrying about electrocuting himself.

So, given that the Asynja appears to be caught between the Allfather and the Titan, and is outclassed at both roles, with the Titan being roughly equal in combat, what's the selling point? She doesn't seem to fill any real niche.

[Cheezeninja]

Shes dead sexy.

[Cohen]

Perhaps Tujdy has missed some others my Posts where I said that VQ should have his new path cost to 70 points about ... and should have even some more nerf. However it seems Devs have already take care of the vamp on the next patch.

If I propose something, isn't for advantage myself, but for game balance in general.
Full stop.

[PvK]

Hmm, I'd not always give my SC winged shoes. More like boots of quickness, which will widen even farther her skill advantages. I expect the way to make her potent is to get her fighting skills quite high.

PvK

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by Cohen:
Perhaps Tujdy has missed some others my Posts where I said that VQ should have his new path cost to 70 points about ... and should have even some more nerf. However it seems Devs have already take care of the vamp on the next patch.

If I propose something, isn't for advantage myself, but for game balance in general.
Full stop.

Cohen, the Tuidjy misses little. This is exactly
my point. You had a bad experience with the VQ,
and you called for a nerf. Now you are having a
bad day with a non-nerfed VQ against the
Allfather, and you are calling for another nerf.
This is a slippery slope.

I was against nerfing the VQ. Not because it was
not too cheap for its power, but because the land
at the end of the nerf road is a desolate one.

Yes, the Allfather is one of the best pretenders.
He is also one of the most expensive. He has one
major weakness. He is missing an eye, and Vanheim
has a horrible time fixing that. GoH, chalice,
etc... are very hard for Vanheim to get without
help. Heartbinding an arco priestess is the only
way I have managed it.

And of course, if you are unlucky enough to lose
the other eye, and it happens, you are left with
an extremely expensive, totally useless gimp.

I do not think the Vampire Queen was that much
out of balance. I do not think that the
Allfather is out of balance at all. I think that
ninety percent of those whining for nerfs are
people who cannot accept that the reason for
their losses is their lack of skill.

I _know_ that nerfing the Allfather will, sooner
or later end up in a whine for the nerfing of
the Ghost King, Nataraja, or Carrior Dragon.
Hell, I like the Naga and the Prince of Death
a lot, so they may come under the knife as well.

We are playing a game about Gods and Heroes.
If you want to play a game about national troops
duking it out, I will probably love to join.
But stop trying to impose your vision of what the
game should be on the rest of us.

House rules suck, but this game is great enough to
survive them. No game can survive a nerffest.