The Vine Ogre - Page 2

The_Tauren13 · #11 February 26th, 2005, 07:22 PM

Are you sure about those numbers? Why are militia stronger than heavy inf? And what does the 'scale' after heavy inf mean?

Alneyan · #12 February 26th, 2005, 07:29 PM

Heavy Inf Scale means heavy infantry wearing scale mail I gather.

The numbers are, I think, supposed to make all groups roughly equally powerful. So 354 militia would be the equivalent of 100 Heavy Infantry, or 81 Vine Ogre. This does not include morale however (I believe), so some of the groups will break in an actual battle, while others will stick to the death.

The Power and Overall numbers mean... Well, something Saber Cherry explained, but nothing my limited grasp of maths could make sense of.

The_Tauren13 · #13 February 26th, 2005, 07:35 PM

Oh i see.. you used like 354 militia and 81 vine ogres...
so to get an accurate 1v1 value.. you could take the power and divide by the number of troops, right? how exactly was the 'power' caulculated, anyway?
so...

Heavy Inf ------- 8.90
Light Inf ------- 5.94
Militia --------- 3.17
Vine Man -------- 3.69
Vine Ogre ------ 11.15
Corpse Construct 2.97

The_Tauren13 · #14 February 26th, 2005, 07:37 PM

But if this simulation doesnt take into account morale, then that makes vine ogres MUCH more effective...

Alneyan · #15 February 26th, 2005, 07:50 PM

Quote:

SaberChery on power and overall:

Note that "Win %" and "Overall Score" don't seem to directly correlate... well, um, that's hard for me to explain, but basically, if a group has a high win% and low overall score, it does well against groups with a low win% and bad against groups a high win%, and vice versa.

I guess power means "how this unit is able to slaughter weaklings" and overall means "how this unit fares when faced with the best troops". I do not think you can divide power by number of troops, but I may just not understand what power means. I simply compare the number of troops needed to do as well as the other squads, so one Vine Ogre would be nearly as good as four militia, but only somewhat better than Heavy infantry.

The numbers mean, on average, that 354 militia will fare as well as 81 vine ogres against all the other squads, but some specific units are better for some situations. And since there is no morale (no routing is allowed according to Saber Cherry), Vine Ogres should indeed be much stronger than shown here.

Boron · #16 February 26th, 2005, 07:58 PM

Fiends of Darkness or Devils are much stronger then Vineogres and are about as cheap also .
Especially the soul contract generated Devil is extremely cheap and does require less magetime also then vine ogres .

And vine ogres are only a meatshield and can be beaten by most national troops easy also . Vans , Knights and simliar would even roxxor them

.

So i wonder too where that consensus that vine ogres are overpowered comes from

Jack Simth · #17 February 26th, 2005, 08:04 PM

The Relevant thread (warning - kinda big....)

The_Tauren13 · #18 February 26th, 2005, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Boron said:
Fiends of Darkness or Devils are much stronger then Vineogres and are about as cheap also .
Especially the soul contract generated Devil is extremely cheap and does require less magetime also then vine ogres .

Sure, but thats comparing them to the best unit in the game for its cost (a devil), but I cant say I know much about fiends.

Quote:

Boron said:
So i wonder too where that consensus that vine ogres are overpowered comes from

From the simple fact that most people I play against get them, and I get them every game I play.

BigDaddy · #19 February 26th, 2005, 08:56 PM

I think more expensive vine ogres would negetively impact nature nations in the early game. A vine ogre isn't really worth 2 gems. Its probably not worth 1. It IS worth .2 gems though, but thats more like a lvl 7 spell, too.

Alneyan · #20 February 26th, 2005, 09:07 PM

Usually you do not get one Vine Ogre per casting, but two: the Ivy Crown replica gives you one more Vine Ogre per summoning, and you should have one of those items per Vine Ogre summoner if you are serious about it. Vine Ogres seem cheap enough at 0.5 gem the unit, if you have enough mages to summon quite a few of them.

Vine Ogres are especially appealing because Nature does not really shine for the unique summonings, unlike Air for the Air Queens, so you are more likely to spend your Nature gems early on rather than those air gems (if you are trying to snatch an Air Queen). That, and Corpse Constructs (the closest equivalent to Vine Ogres in spirit) require harder to get magic, while not really being on par with the Vine Ogres, and that's only if you find enough Air-1/Death-1 cheap mages... or even *one* source of cheap Air 1/Death 1 mages, Return of the Raptors excluded.