Soviet OOB 11 formation suggestions

[Griefbringer]

I have been lately reading the book Companion to the Red Army (also published under the name Red Army Handbook), written by Steven Zaloga and Leland Ness, first published in 1998. To my understanding this is considered as a pretty reliable source for the Red Army organisation in the 1939-1945, though if somebody can point out inaccuracies I would be interested to hear about them.

Thus I would like to point out a number of formations where the organisation used in the game is noticeably different from that given in the book. Admittedly, there were quite a lot of organisational changes taking place in 1941-1942 period, and there is no real point in trying to represent all of these in game terms, so I expect the game TOEs to simplify things a little bit.

For practical reasons, I will be covering this topic over multiple posts, with one or two formations per post.

[Griefbringer]

1.) Regimental reconnaissance company (formations 242 and 243)

In game this formation consists of HQ section, two cavalry scout sections (16 men each), two foot scout sections (16 men each), two snipers and a motorcycle section, with formation 243 also adding a few trucks. Historically the regimental recce consisted of a mounted scout platoon and infantry scout platoon, but no motorcycles (in general rifle divisions seem to have featured very few motorcycles, even in the April 1941 TOE).

However while the company organisation stayed pretty same through the war, amount of men in the scout platoons dwindled quite swiftly during the 1941-1942 organisational changes. April 1941 TOE gives the mounted platoon as 32 men, and infantry platoon as 52 men, while December 1941 TOE has these reduced to 22 for the mounted platoon and 49 for the infantry platoon. By July 1942 the mounted platoon is down to 17 men and infantry platoon down to 36 men, and by December 1942 these had been cut down to 11 men in the mounted platoon and 25 in the infantry platoon.

I would suggest to:
a.) drop the motorcycle section from formations 242 and 243
b.) add one more foot scout section to formation 242 to represent the strong scout platoon of 1941, but give an earlier ending date (eg 7/42).
c.) introduce a new formation variant (covering eg. 8/42-12/43) with one mounted scout section and two foot scout sections, to represent the smaller recce company organisations introduced during the war.
d.) drop one cavalry scout section from formation 243

Possibly also a new scout section structure (3 instead of 4 scout units) could be introduced from 1943 onwards or so.

[Griefbringer]

2.) Inf-AT Platoon (formation 127)

In game this formation consists of a rifle section platoon HQ (around 10 men) and 9 AT teams (2 men each). Game-wise, this is a bit clumsy since it makes the platoon HQ easier to spot than the rest of the platoon (size 1 vs. size 0). It also makes the platoon numerically overtly strong - typical infantry battalion AT rifle platoon (using December
1942 TOE from page 26) seems to be 23 men, including a wagon driver.

Thus I would suggest to either
a.) replace the rifle section as platoon HQ with a four man scout team, or
b.) simply drop it off and have the first AT rifle team act as platoon HQ.

Also, this formation has ending date of 12/44 which may be a bit early. While it is true that the regimental anti-tank rifle companies were abolished at that time, the infantry battalion AT rifle platoon seem to have persisted to the end of the war. At least the divisional summary table for June 1945 version lists still 111 anti-tank rifles present for the whole division.

3.) Regimental Inf-AT company (formation 072)

In game this formation consists of 2 section HQ (around 20 men), three Inf-AT platoons and ATG platoon of three guns with trucks. According to the same December 1942 TOE, the actual regimental anti-tank rifle company consisted of 4 man HQ and and three AT rifle platoons of 24, including wagon driver. AT guns were not actually part of the AT rifle company, but belonged to a separate anti-tank battery, consisting of three platoons of two anti-tank guns each, with horse-drawn transportation.

Thus I would suggest to
a.) drop the company HQ from 2 sections into 1 section
b.) drop the anti-tank guns from this formation, there are other formations to represent actual anti-tank batteries

[Griefbringer]

4.) Infantry battalion HQ (formation 234 and 235)

In game this formation consists of a HQ section, battalion HQ heavy infantry platoon (formation 237), motorcycle section and five trucks, with formation 235 also adding in an mech infantry platoon and armoured car platoon.

I am afraid I cannot find anything like this in the formations given in The Red Army Handbook - according to which there are no trucks or motorcycles at all to be found in infantry battalion (never mind halftracks or armoured cars). Also the HQ heavy infantry platoon is something that is not present in rifle division infantry battalion.

Any idea about what this formation is supposed to represent, and what are the original sources for this organisation?

[Griefbringer]

5.) Battalion weapons company (formations 239 and 240)

Historically the battalion MG platoons formed their own MG company. In this formation the battalion mortars and anti-tank guns have been bundled into the same company, while they were not actually part of the MG company. This formation also includes motorcycles that were not actually present in the infantry battalion.

I would suggest to:
a.) drop the motorcycles
b.) move the mortars and anti-tank guns under the infantry battalion HQ formation, and rename this formation as Battalion MG company

Edit: as an extra option, perhaps the battalion AT guns could be represented by the Light AT Gun class, that is already in use elsewhere in this OOB. This would help to limit the battalion to the smaller AT guns, which is what they actually used.

[Griefbringer]

6.) Div Support Wpn (formation 246)

This is a rather unwieldy formation, that seems to bundle up various regimental (infantry guns, AT guns, 120 mm mortars, AAMGs) and divisional assets (AA guns) under a rather unwieldy three squad HQ. Plus some motorcycles once again thrown in to form a rather strange hodge-podge.

I would rather see a pure formation for all of the infantry regiment support weapons, without any divisional weapons thrown in. Such a formation could consist of:
- AAMG platoon
- Engineer platoon
- ATG battery (6 guns)
- Infantry gun battery (4 guns)
- Heavy mortar battery (4 or 6 tubes)

And possibly adding a separate formation for the divisional support weapons (if really needed).

[Griefbringer]

7.) Mountain infantry company (formation 290)

This in game formation seems a bit light compared to the actual historical TOE. Early war mountain rifle platoon consisted of four rifle squads (each with 12 men and LMG) and a four man mortar team with 50 mm mortar, and the company was supported by a three gun MG platoon. In April 1943 the 50 mm mortars were moved from the platoons to a regimental light mortar company, but by September 1944 they had been moved back to the rifle companies.

Also in April 1943 the MG platoon was dropped from the rifle company, and one of the platoons was armed with SMGs, and six snipers were added to the company.

I would suggest
a.) changing the fourth squad of a mountain rifle platoon (formation 291) from scouts into mountain heavy infantry squad (or other such variant), armed with 50 mm mortar or sniper rifle (April 1943 onwards) in the fourth weapon slot
b.) adding a three MG support platoon to the company
c.) introducing a different company variant from April 1943 onwards, with the MGs removed and one of the platoons changed into mountain SMG platoon (maybe using the light mountain infantry unit class or so)

[Griefbringer]

8.) Infantry guns (formations 034 and 036)

Currently in game there are two infantry gun formations, platoon of three guns (036) and section of two guns (034). However historically these guns were organised into platoons of two guns, and these platoons were organised into a regimental gun battery. Infantry regiment gun battery initially contained three platoons, cut down to two platoons with the December 1941 TOE reorganisation.

Thus I would suggest:
a.) changing IG platoon (036) from three to two guns
b.) changing IG section (034) from two to one guns, or discontinuing it altogether
c.) introducing IG battery, initially with six guns and then with four guns from the beginning of 1942 onwards

[Griefbringer]

9.) AT gun formations

Currently in the game AT guns can be found in 2 gun sections (formation 128), 3 gun platoons (formations 096, 097, 098, 356) and 6 gun batteries (formations 095). However, historically these guns were formed into two gun platoons, with batteries consisting of three platoons (though in 1941 also two platoon batteries got introduced for use in anti-tank battalions).

Thus I would suggest:
a.) changing the AT gun platoons (formations 096, 097, 098, 356) from three to two guns each
b.) removing the AT gun section (formation 128) from TOE
c.) adding another AT gun battery, with four gun organisation to the TOE (available 4/41 onwards or so)

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That should cover most of my suggestions for now, though I might come up with more later on (at least if somebody found my previous suggestions useful).

[DRG]

Originally Posted by Griefbringer

[b]Any idea about what this formation is supposed to represent, and what are the original sources for this organisation?

SERIOUSLY ??


I've been doing this for 14 years. I know for certain those formations have existed...without anyone finding a reason to complain about them...for at least 10 years and I suspect they may have been there since Day 1.

If I kept a record of every source that anyone had ever used to create a unit or formation it's likely that because of the number of units and formations that even if I did have a record I probably wouldn't be able to find it because of the shear number of units/formations in the games.

PLUS, keeping records like that is

1/ T E D I O U S

2/ TIME CONSUMING. When there is X number of hours available to work and I have to spend Y amount of time keeping records just in case someone asks 12 years later where the info came from. Half the work would have been done and it's more than a little likely I would have taken a 12 gauge to the computer years ago.

So no, I don't know who put this in or what sources they used. It could be they made it up to fill a gap or it could be any number of other reasons. I've put this on the list and when the time comes to hold my nose and jump into the OOB work I'll look into it



Don