Imagine there's no Talisman, it isn't hard to do

[tesco samoa]

GUTB ESCORT MOUNT

TGM has it

it is 3 mounts

mount one is engines 1/4th size 1/10th supply usage, 10x supply space and 1/10th the cost

mount two is hard componets

10x hp , and 1/10th the cost

mount three is GUTB weapon

10x range, 10x damage 1/10th size , 1/10th cost 1/10th supply usage.

You do not want to hear about whats in the garage... ( yep GUTB mount comes equipt with 2000 cargo space for fighters , drones , sats or mines ) and it is +999 to hit

[rdouglass]

Originally posted by tesco samoa:
I would make it a 1000 point trait then...

or even 750.

The 5 facilites are nice ... But one can do with out them fine.

( advanced storage should be 1500 or 2000 )

If you remove the Talisman, IMO that might make it a little more equal, but a different weapon would be nice as well.

I do agree that the Talisman is quite intimidating and I think we should develop a culture that says "Players using Talismans are wusses!"

Seriously though, I think the way it is, the religious tree is under-priced. In fact, I think most of the tech tree 'prices' should be adjusted a little. I used to play it all the time (before it became the tech; now I don't use it at all 'cause it seems quite powerful. I do agree the facilities are almost worth the cost of the tree without the Talisman (but not quite).

OT: AST has been a fav of mine for a while - please don't raise the cost As it is, in AIC, it's something like 4000 points!!!!! ('course it's a big advantage there )

[Loser]

I rmemeber GUTB, or at least I remember someone talking about mid-early game, or perhaps early-early game unstopable escorts and I think that was GUTB, but I do not know this TGM? Mod?

[tesco samoa]

Tech Grid Mod. Never done.. Never talked about...

I am on the weapons now and well.... just kind of stopped. It is the way modding goes.... You get in a flow and do lots then all of a sudden you stop. And it is hard to get going again

[dogscoff]

How about some kind of religious conVersion effect? Either an AS-type weapon or a crew insurrection/ PPP intel project?

What I'd love to see are religious community facilities in proportions- kind of a cross between the current city facilities and the existing shrines.

[LGM]

But like the Alliegence subverter, this topic has been beaten to death.

At least the subverter has a counter. Master Computers are costly, but they do free up space as well as prefent subVersion. The subverter does not have the greatest range either.

I do not believe there is an adequate counter to the Talisman. Sure there are things you can do differently than you normally would, but none that will let you win with a near equal economy.

The Talisman can make a 1% to hit into 100%. The religious player does not need to train his ships, but it makes him even tougher if he does.
Defense for a Talisman Ship: 20% Racial, 60% ECM III, Ship Training 20%, Fleet Training 20%, Range 50%+(Closing to range 5 is doing quite well), Stealth Armor 15%, Scattering Armor 15%. Such a ship is almost untouchable by direct fire weapons. That is about 200% defense, disregarding $ boundaries at intermediate points of the calculation). To hit it you have the following: Training + 40%, Racial 25%, Culture 10% Beserker, Sensor III 65%, Wave Motion Gun (30%) = +170% to hit with WMG, +140% with PPBs.

I think with the WMG you have a minimum to hit of 31%, so you might not even need all those modifiers. (I have not used a WMG recently). 31% of your weapons hit every three rounds. That is tough when they plug you with Torpedoes every other round from Max range and then run away while they reload. Or they plug you with PPBs every round. Or they gut your ship with Null Space every three rounds. Or they use Massive Shield killers before the battle starts. Or the pull you in with a Tractor beam, hit you with cheap APBs, and fling you away with Repulsor beams.

[Fyron]

Master Computers are costly

Only on small ships. On Crusier through Battleship, C&C costs 2500 minerals. MC costs 4000 minerals, and some irrelevant amount of organics and rads (irrelevant because they do not affect build times at all, except possibly with certain Organic Man. ship designs). So, using the MC really only costs you 1500 minerals and some piddly orgs and rads more. It is not that expensive, and often doesn't even increase the build time! Now, the things you stick in that extra space might, but that is another issue.

With DNs and BSs, you lose even less by using MCs.

I think with the WMG you have a minimum to hit of 31%, so you might not even need all those modifiers.

I beleive that was changed in either 1.41 or 1.49, so that the weapon bonuses are applied before the 1% or 99% caps. Before, they were applied after, so you can get things like 31% minimum to hit. But now, it is applied before the cap, so there is no longer any extra minimums there.

[ July 17, 2003, 19:05: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]