Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by Vynd:
This thread has drifted somewhat off its original topic. And yet I think it proves Arralen's point that Tien Chi S&A is a relatively weak theme that could use some help. If S&A's national troops and required scales are so bad that you may as well forget about buying them and just pour all of your points into a Pretender, then S&A is not very good.

I disagree here.
To clarify my opinion on topic:

If you want ok troops,you can play base tien chi.
You have,besides a nice variety of mages,good alround armies.Still,even for base Tien Chi,the strength of the nation lies in the magic power.

The composite bowmen are cheap and if you think in bigger numbers(+20 archers)the difference between the better composite bow and a normal short bow does matter.Also you have crossbowmen right from the start,as well as ok heavy infantries,even a bless effect strategy might work.
S&A on the otherhand has a strong amount of 3 starting summoning spells,which all require different gems(thats a big advantage!),and one of the best mages of the game,with increased power compared to base theme, so I see no problem why the national troops lack some unique units compared to base theme.
Just because there is no need to buy lots of national troops,because you can summon your armies right from the start,doesnt mean they need better troops.
It plays differently than the base theme and is certainly not much weaker,if at all(I consider it stronger in most situations btw)...and that is exactly what the developers say the themes are for.

Barbarian Kings need improvement,lots of it.

[Mardagg]

Originally posted by Boron:
[that is not too good i think because of this you wrote
iirc you lose lots of population through higher taxes then 100% , more population through patrolling and finally :
your patrollers most likely have upkeep .

so even in the short run you get more money most likely without patrollers and taxes simply at 100%.


hm i think the phönixes niche where he shines is for marignon : e.g. f9 bless effect + he can be risked on indy provinces hopefully conquering them through holy pyre / fire darts .

but 80 new path costs , base hp of 12 and only 2 misc + 1 headslot look too limiting to me to use him as an sc .


[/QB]

Well,I was serious,even though it was only a small point.
The standard patrollers for Tien Chi cost upkeep,right,but its less than the gold you get at taxes 120.
Its a small gold boost,only to get a slightly faster start.
You dont lose that much population at growth 3 if you patrol the first 3-4 turns.After it,you sacrifice your starting troops and try to look for upkeep free patrollers,whenever you have some summonings in your home castle.I usually stop patrolling (which I do only from time to time) at around turn 30 or whenever I feel I earn enough money.

I play the phoenix much different.
With Air/Fire magic alone you get lots of nice spell combos.
Getting 1 expensive other path is also ok,but not necessary.
Also dont forget AWE on the Phoenix,as I said,dont underestimate it.
Its nice to see those Infantries get to my phoenix,after suffering from several damage spells
,just to do nearly no damage against my Mistformed,Mirror Imaged ,Fire Shielded and AWE Phoenix.
Usually this is the case,when my scripted spells are finished and then the AI starts casting those short range mass damage spells...
If there are archers,you have air shield,too.
And this are only the basic spell combos.
You die a hell of a lot,but you also kill huge amounts of troops.
The key to play the phoenix ,expecially in MP,is to know how to script him correctly against certain enemies AND to know what the AI casts in certain situations.

[tinkthank]

Boron, why do you think that S&A troops are that awful? I agree with Rabe. (Except that I play with an Earth Mother, and have much success E4 N3, now all my paths are covered but blood -- depending on map and enemies, I take T1 / Prod 1 / Growth 1 / Luck 2 / Magic 3, Dominion 7, Castle -- I have enough money for CMs, get my heroes quickly, and can recruit some troops.)

I think the troops are decent. Composite Bows are fine for 10 gold and a strat-2 move! OK they are not as good as Man, or Caelum, or Tien default, but they are decent. The rest are acceptable for what they are. Plus there are Spirits out of the box, and Demons. (I agree that getting only 1 per turn is a bummer, but I think it is balanced.)

I certainly would have to disagree that S&A national troops are the "worst".

[Boron]

Originally posted by tinkthank:
Boron, why do you think that S&A troops are that awful? I agree with Rabe. (Except that I play with an Earth Mother, and have much success E4 N3, now all my paths are covered but blood -- depending on map and enemies, I take T1 / Prod 1 / Growth 1 / Luck 2 / Magic 3, Dominion 7, Castle -- I have enough money for CMs, get my heroes quickly, and can recruit some troops.)

I think the troops are decent. Composite Bows are fine for 10 gold and a strat-2 move! OK they are not as good as Man, or Caelum, or Tien default, but they are decent. The rest are acceptable for what they are. Plus there are Spirits out of the box, and Demons. (I agree that getting only 1 per turn is a bummer, but I think it is balanced.)

I certainly would have to disagree that S&A national troops are the "worst".

i only quote your post but rabes is in many ways similiar there :

first name me a nation/theme that has worse troops than tien chi s&a . the composite bows are ok and the 2 summons DoHF + DoHW . but the 2 summons are hard to get in sufficient numbers .

so now a new argument :
i have made a test : with 0 scales + watchtower you get about 155-160 starting income ( depends a bit on population sometimes you get 30500 sometimes 29800 in the start )

rabe gets with P3G3T1 H0 about 160-165 starting income .

i get about 90-95 starting income with my scales . so about 55% of rabes income .
but for that i get +240 + 240 +80 + 120 points = a "uber"vq . if i give her e.g. D5 i have access to all the nice death toys without empowering expect tartarians .


at about turn 30 due to my d3 and rabes g3 my income will be only about 45-50% of his but for that i have a "uber"vq .
and luck 3 should compensate for both of us .

so i have vq but weaker economy and rabe has good scales but slower research ( i have magic 3 ) so in research we will still be both as quick .

i still think my approach is not bad too .
it is a bit extravagant but i like it .

[tinkthank]

"Worse" national troops (although caveat: uncontextualized superlatives make NO SENSE in dominions 2, I am only doing this because it seems you want to hear something like this!)

1. Mictlan
2. Pangaia
3. Ermor

Like I said in my caveat, I don't really agree to this, because "worst" makes no sense uncontextualized, but there you go. Consider contexts, such as: Atlantis and Abysia have NO missile troops, Ctis troops have low morale, etc.

with 95 gold per turn, you may have better magic, but you have no one to do the research! You have a great vq, but do you want her to research? You can recruit a ModT per turn, as long as nothing burns down, and they are fine researchers to be sure, but that is it.

Like I said in my first post here, it seems that these scales can be applied to any nation with exactly the same degree of success; thus, it seems like
1. an odd idea to want to apply it to S&A.
2. a scary idea, because if it is good for everyone, then it is an "easy one-size-fits-all" solution, and these are notoriously inadmissable in Dom2.
Thus, I doubt its validity.

[rabelais]

Originally posted by Boron:
(snip!)

really curious i know i must have overlooked something with my assertions

Heh.

I wasn't criticizing any particular set-up, just offering my own (fairly extensive MP) experience in playing S+A.

But since you're asking for an analysis of your design. I'll try to indulge you.

I think the main issue with the strategy you outline is early expansion/viability in MP.

Having an "uber" VQ with crap scales and a watchtower means that everyone is going to make it their number one priority to kill you.

Your income analysis ignored the major difference that my Version has a citadel, which gives admin income advantages, and make people unlikely to want to storm your capital.

Also, one's capital provides the bulk of the income through the (most important) beginning turns and growth-3 allows you to run taxes at 120% without pop loss.

In practical terms you've underestimated the income advantage (already large)of the scale set up by at least another 40%, and that will widen as the game goes forward.

While it is true that the VQ will eventually make for a fine normal troop killing machine, that requires research driven buffs... with no income for regular troops you will be *very* slow at the start. Too slow to avoid being cannibalized, in my view.

I'm not saying S+A is without problems, but the art of doing well with S+A is surviving long enough to get your CM's and mini SC's (Nobles, Troll Kings, firbolg) outfitted for combat, while maximizing your expansion and gem income.

Plus I'll have a sizable base army to supplement, which is not obviously the case for the scorched-earth VQ setup.

Even ignoring the expansion advantage... By midgame the scale heavy strat will have more mages, more research, a better primary SC, a much better fort for choke points, hugely better income and better diplomatic prospects. IMHO.

I think the Earth Mother is an excellent choice for S+A as it gives you relatively inexpensive coverage of your weak paths. I have come to prefer the naked Nata just because it is absolutely free, you don't have to be as careful with it, it can't research, so you *have* to expand with it, and in mid/late game they make the ultimate SC.

By putting all your eggs in the VQ basket you're sacrificing much of the flexibility that makes S+A fun (and extremely effective mid/late game)

It's a matter of taste, perhaps.

I'd be interested in hearing stories from those who have played S+A in MP... is the callow VQ strat viable, particularly post-nerf?


Rabe

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by rabelais:
By putting all your eggs in the VQ basket you're sacrificing much of the flexibility that makes S+A fun (and extremely effective mid/late game)

It's a matter of taste, perhaps.

I'd be interested in hearing stories from those who have played S+A in MP... is the callow VQ strat viable, particularly post-nerf?

I'd have to say that from my experiences in testing games, this is a rather awful plan...and this comes from a veteran VQ player. The primary issue with a VQ strategy is that you have really only a limited window of opportunity in which your club works, against anyone who's halfway decent: Once someone has enough research under his belt, he can shutdown a lone VQ at minimal cost. At that point, your edge is history, and if that's all you have, so are you. Unfortunately, S&A already suffers from crappy income, and trying to fuel a super-VQ without "Freebie" points is going to hurt that even more. With nonexistent income, you can't afford to churn out the temples that keep your VQ immortal, and you can't afford the castles that keep said temples from being burninated.

Even if you squeeze to make ends meet, now your research suffers horribly from being unable to afford researchers. While you may be able to hang on in the early game, your paralyzing lack of research will cripple you as you enter the midgame. Not good.

[peasant]

I like Tien Chi, but never tried S&A seriously until this thread. Tested in SP

Boy, is it fun! Went with nekkid Nataraja, and good scales, plus castle. Even poor provinces end up at decent income after a while, and your site searching is awesome.

The base troops are OK - esp the archers. Fire demons are good artillery, if annoying to summon. Water demons are a bit bleh, just using normal footsoldiers is usually enough of a shield while your mages do their stuff.

Flying commando CM's with rainbow armour/other reinvig items = Fun! Nataraj with 4 totem shields = hilarious support! (he's now gone SC, with lucky shield/ carbon shield/ wraith sword/ flying boots/ ring of regen/ horror helmet, but I found that the curses and arrows meant that large proportion of enemy were dead/ badly afflicted by time they hit the meat shield)

MoT5D's = every toy you want for mini SC's!

S&A heroes, with luck scale +1/2 turn up. The priestess to patch up the nataraj, the leper to cause havoc, and fly wisk guy to be an uber CM. Immortals all...

So, leave S&A as it is. It may not be uber, but I found myself laughing when playing it.

Loss of the "economy destroyer" stealth unit is a pain, but that only really works to shut down AI anyway, as players patrol.

[Agrajag]

"but even with luck 3 you get only with 3% probability a hero each turn iirc ."
IIRC, the chances of a national hero are 3% without any luck scales, +1% for every luck scale and -1% for every misfortune one, so with luck+3 its 6% per turn.
Still, after 10 turns, that's just [1 - (0.94)^10]% = 46.1384885% that any hero will turn up after 10 turns.
For 30 turns its 84.3744393%, and if you aim for only one of them, thats really unreliable...
EDIT: Just to make myself clear, that's not exactly the % of getting a hero because you are limited to 3 heroes, you have 84% that 1-30 heroes will show up, and since you only have 3 heroes available, thats not precise, but still pretty close to the actual odds.
And still unreliable as a strat...

[ August 04, 2004, 13:21: Message edited by: Agrajag ]

[Boron]

thnx rabe but you left out my main question
i wanted to know how you get in midgame additional "highclass" sc's with your naked nataraja strat

my strategy has it's issues as you have proven

but i am really curious how you get higher summons midgame :

heros included with your naked nataraja you can get maximum the following paths :

A3(1/64probability with cm)
E2(1/8 probability with MoT5E)
W4 (1/64 probability with cm , w3 with 1/8 cm thats easy and enough for sea kings court )
F3 ( again 1/64 with cm )
S3 ( hero lu tung pin )
N2 ( 1/8 MoT5E , hero ho hsien-ku )
B2 ( 1/64 probability on cm )
D2 ( 1/64 probability cm , hero li tie kuai )

so you seem quite limited midgame on firbolgs / sea trolls because most path increasing items require path 3 to forge .
Nature 2 is enough for thistle mace . thats enough for firbolgs .

with lamia queens you can forge death items then and get access to e.g. demilichs + wraithlords .
lucky lamia queens (2 random sorceries ) can summon bane lords without path increase .

so you are quite dependent on nature magic imho . you have no starting nature gem income so you need luck and find nature sites .

hmm ok with much luck you get your d2 hero early he can forge for 10 deathgems then a +1 deathstaff or wraith swords .
but even with luck 3 you get only with 3% probability a hero each turn iirc .
because you have 3 heros it can take a pretty long time to get him .
empowering a death 1 mage to d2 costs 30 deathgems iirc so not cheap too .

so the problem i have with your strat :
you need much luck with random paths or getting heros for the much needed death summons / items .

not so serious but similiar to get into nature .

tien chi s&a is hard .
my attempt is not good because no money .
but with your attempt you have to sacrifice almost all points for building your economy scales and still have only slightly higher income than any other nation with complete flat scales .
any nation with order 3 and perhaps growth 3 has much higher income than you as tien chi s&a .

so imho as hard as you try doesn't prevent you from beeing one of the easier targets early - midgame if you don't have much luck .