Opfire (no, not about the draining problem...)

Anton · #1 July 12th, 2008, 02:37 PM

Hello all!

This question arose after playing the Tutorial scenario for the Irag side. As I drove my T-72 tanks onto the ridgeline they immediately got shot by the Abrams's. Once my tank climbed on, every Abrams had a chance to take a shot at it. If only my tank was exceptionally lucky, it had an opporntunity to fire before being destroyed.

If a similar situation occured in reality, most of Iraq tanks would go on the ridgeline simultaneously making it much harder for the Abrams's to destroy them, because they wouldn't be able to defeat them one by one.

Hereby I'd like to ask: What's the algorithm for determining who shots first in a situation when the units engaged see each other?

ShadowDrake · #2 July 12th, 2008, 02:47 PM

I'm pretty sure that if it's your turn, and a unit is moved into an enemy's range, they shoot first if they can see you. If they can't, they won't shoot, so you can shoot them first.

Anton · #3 July 12th, 2008, 02:49 PM

But why on earth would they always be first?? Thers must be other factors...

Mobhack · #4 July 12th, 2008, 03:29 PM

This is a turn-based game, not a continuous-time game. Each piece is moved individually.

The piece that just moved (or fired) triggers opportunity fire from any candidate firers in LOS.

Cheers
Andy

Anton · #5 July 12th, 2008, 03:59 PM

Well, even as old a game as X-COM did have a methood for deciding when a reaction can happen. It XCOM a unit would reacct only if a certain function depending on his Time Units was greater than a similar function for the target. As the result, the reacting unit wasn't always able to shoot first. Althoght the above method is absurd, it was there, and sometimes you could move around in an enemy's LOS before he started to shoot.

The easiest and most obvious technique could be to calculate the times needed to aim and take a shot for both units (using the units's specs as arguments: speed, turret speed, aiming mechanism...) and conclude the sequence of shots.

P.S.: Do you mean that being in the passive phase guaranties for a unit to be the first to shoot at anyone who enters his LOS, if both units spot each other simultaneously?

P.P.S: Thanks for the reply!

junk2drive · #6 July 12th, 2008, 04:17 PM

Depending on things like visibility and size etc, you lead with something like scouts on foot. They might spot the enemy without getting spotted. Then you can come up with a plan other than charging up the middle into an ambush.

ShadowDrake · #7 July 12th, 2008, 07:04 PM

Let's be honest, charging into the enemies guns is a bad idea anyway. Especially with T-72s vs M1A1s.

And in response to your PS, yes, that is true.

Anton · #8 July 13th, 2008, 07:00 AM

Thank you all for your replies.

You seem to defent the game's engines by providing
a) Alternative tactics that would help me gain advantage in my situation.
b) Saying that it's not that unrealistic.

To #1 I'll have to agree. That prooves SPMBT is pretty much playable and interesting a game.

As to #2, I can't fully agree with Shadowdrake, who wrote:

"Let's be honest, charging into the enemies guns is a bad idea anyway. Especially with T-72s vs M1A1s."

But I have more T72s (supported by T-55s) than my enemy has M1A1s. And what if I want to use this numerical superiority to fight the M1A1s? If I move all my tanks simultaneously towards the enemy he won't have ROF high enough to burm all of them fast enoght to prevent any fire at him.

Say, one Abrams is attacked by two T-72s. While he'll be aiming and shooting at one T-72, the other one will have time to shoot, even assuming T-72 needs 1.8 times more time to take the first shot than the Abrams...

And, what would you say is it were T-90s instead of the T-72s? Would that change the situation of my tanks being shot one by one before even having a chance to take a single shot? Op-fire from the M1A1s come first anyway, right?

What I mean is that the game engine does not allow to take this factor into accout (maybe no TBS do...). Also is doesn't account for recation and aiming-shooting times in calculating which unit shoots first if both of them has spotted each other at the same moment.

If I spot an enemy just half a second later than he has spotted me, I am afraid that will mean the enemy will shoot first, which is not very realistic if he has a slower gun mechanics...

Wdll · #9 July 13th, 2008, 09:05 AM

You are assuming too many things there.

1 M1A1 is not = to 1 T-72s. Just because the M1A1 needs some seconds to fire at one of the two T-72, it doesn't mean that the other T-72 can locate lock and fire in that same amount of time. Also training, where do you put that?
Also, there have been battles in Iraq where the allied tanks were outnumbered, they still annihilated the Iraqi tanks. Even without Opfire.

If you want to get a chance, then perhaps you could force the enemy tanks to fire at something else first.

Cross · #10 July 13th, 2008, 10:30 AM

In the context of this game, I think it's right that the non-active player gets to shoot first, though they often don't. I think the active player has a huge advantage during his move turn.

By driving into his view, you have effectively driven into an ambush. This is even more true if the Abrams tanks are stationary.