Dealing with an early N9 E9 Niefel Giant rush

[MaxWilson]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

Not sure what's wrong with me but i have never seen skelly spam be effective on anything.

It takes a certain critical mass. 1 skelly spammer works well against very small groups (e.g. an assassin with a Skullface will kill almost any individual commander), but in order to defeat an army you need at least 6-10. The key is to produce skellys fast enough that they can't kill them all before you make more. Eventually the enemy troops fatigue out and then evaporate.

This obviously works best against heavily-armored troops without much missile support, and ideally you have some normal troops as well set to Guard Commander.

-Max

[rdonj]

Does anyone know offhand if the stun effect on Yomi's Ao-Oni works against niefel giants? It doesn't say anything about being a cold effect, and if it does work that could give some pretty decent results.

[sum1lost]

Fire arrows will be very, very effective vs. neifel giants, if my guess is right. Especially when combined with destruction.

[Zeldor]

Flaming arrows are not early game option.

[DonCorazon]

Originally Posted by MaxWilson

It takes a certain critical mass. 1 skelly spammer works well against very small groups (e.g. an assassin with a Skullface will kill almost any individual commander), but in order to defeat an army you need at least 6-10. The key is to produce skellys fast enough that they can't kill them all before you make more. Eventually the enemy troops fatigue out and then evaporate.

This obviously works best against heavily-armored troops without much missile support, and ideally you have some normal troops as well set to Guard Commander.

-Max

I guess to put it another way, every time an opponent has tried to skelly spam me, it has failed miserably. The tactic seems very overrated in MP as far as I can tell. I don't recall the fatigue cost of the spell but IIRC it is rather high so wonder how high a level are the casters usually when you have used this effectively?

[Huzurdaddi]

Originally Posted by Epaminondas

Thanks for the thread reference, but the topic is not really identical. That thread assumes options once most spells have been researched and hence lists counters that I too am aware of. My question had to do with early game options, when few spells are researched, and you have to manage with national units, low level spells and items.

You are right they are not exactly the same. But let's go through the counters in the thread:

lightning (evoc 2)
Skelly spam (ench 3)
Body etherial (alt 3)
Rage (thaum 3)
Paralyze (thaum 4)
destruction (alt 4)
thunderstrike (evoc 4)
flaming arrows (ench 4)
Soul Slay (thaum 5)
Ghost Grip (conj 5)
orb lightning (evoc 5)
Stellar Cascades (evoc 5)
will 'o the wisp (?) never tried it will this actually do anything? (conj 5)
Enslave Mind (thaum 6)
Petrify (alt 6)
living statues (ench 6)
mechanical men (const 7)

I would say that the level 3-4 spells are in play. I have to say that the level 4 spells look more hopeful than the level 3 spells.

Also, since Niefel is so dependent upon it's capital, how about: spies & rain of toads.

[DonCorazon]

Eye Shield Const 2

[Huzurdaddi]

Originally Posted by DonCorazon

I guess to put it another way, every time an opponent has tried to skelly spam me, it has failed miserably. The tactic seems very overrated in MP as far as I can tell. I don't recall the fatigue cost of the spell but IIRC it is rather high so wonder how high a level are the casters usually when you have used this effectively?

You need a good set of D3 mages. This means, generally, C'tis. A few other nations can do it, but they usually require capitol only mages. As for how many mages, about 1 mage per 10-15-ish human level troops on the other side.

OTOH having a few priests in an opposing army pretty much whoops up on skelly spam, but usually people do not have more than one or two priests.

[DonCorazon]

Exactly, how many people are running around with D3 mages? And the priest counters are much simpler, cheaper and easier to get. Not to mention lots of mages are holy and can be scripted to banish or the AI will revert to banish after scripting runs out.

I suspect Skelly Spam is a way overrated tactic that worked better in Dom 2. I am glad it is so promoted since I love to see D3 mages that could be casting much more effective spells instead raising a few piles of skeletons that I can wade through for lots of XP.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by Huzurdaddi

You are right they are not exactly the same. But let's go through the counters in the thread:

lightning (evoc 2)
Skelly spam (ench 3)
Body etherial (alt 3)
Rage (thaum 3)
Paralyze (thaum 4)
destruction (alt 4)
thunderstrike (evoc 4)
flaming arrows (ench 4)
Soul Slay (thaum 5)
Ghost Grip (conj 5)
orb lightning (evoc 5)
Stellar Cascades (evoc 5)
will 'o the wisp (?) never tried it will this actually do anything? (conj 5)
Enslave Mind (thaum 6)
Petrify (alt 6)
living statues (ench 6)
mechanical men (const 7)

I would say that the level 3-4 spells are in play. I have to say that the level 4 spells look more hopeful than the level 3 spells.

Also, since Niefel is so dependent upon it's capital, how about: spies & rain of toads.

Yes. This is one of the things that is very effective, blight, rain of toads etc.