MA Man in latest CBM

[Festin]

I think the simplest way to add some diversity would be giving Astral randoms to Man mages. Nothing really unthematic in it, and it can give Man some edge.

[quantum_mechani]

I like how this thread has progressed from complaining about a slight thematical change, to suggesting a range of comparatively nuclear-option theme alterations.

[AreaOfEffect]

Well, the progression is derived from the contribution of many minds. I've personally tried to be consistent. Then again, I haven't really given any suggestions either.

It seems to me that the two most noted issues with Man in Vanilla is that they lack an easy-to-mass powerful recruit and that they lack a great deal of magic diversity. I could care less about powerful thug like recruits to be honest. Such units exist so people can send forth units without any need for strategy or thought. Build dudes, send dudes, build more dudes. Yay, your a winner.

What makes wardens valuable is stealth +0. Done, end of story. Personally, I find making them recruit everywhere, particularly in the late age, makes Man over-the-top hard to kill. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know the value of armored stealth units. I've used Wardens to great effect in games and with zero bless and capitol only.

Magic diversity is the other issue that seems to have arisen. Honestly though, the only reason why this matters is because people are too busy working out a bless for their thugs to afford the diversity on their god. In part, making wardens more available has made Man weaker, not stronger, on the average. New players will pick up Man, have no means of winning the late game because of a distracting unit, and complain.

[thejeff]

"the only reason why this (magic diversity) matters is because people are too busy working out a bless for their thugs to afford the diversity on their god"

Since most didn't bother using the sacreds in vanilla (or past CBM versions), diversity was never a problem before for Man?
You've only got nature and air above 1! The only other paths you even get at 1 are Earth and Water. Everything else has to come off your god. Not just casting and forging, but also any site searching.
You can't even make air boosters with your nationals. Neither of those paths let you expand into other paths with summons.
Your god can't carry the whole nation.

They're not even the best in their age at either of those paths. Which don't even synergize well.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

In part, making wardens more available has made Man weaker, not stronger, on the average.

This statement makes no sense. That players might choose the wrong tool for a job does not make the presence of more tools a weakness.

[Lurker_at_Threshold]

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

Increased stealth is always a consideration of mine. In many cases it will trump gold cost.

Also, Oberon's court sounds like the most interesting way to increase magic diversity in my opinion. I'm all for it.

Thank you for your appreciation. Given that man represents medieval England, I've always felt that they were rather boring. Although I have no skill with modding I've always figured it would be a nice thematic upper tier nature summon for Man.

Oberion: He would of course be one of the main goals of the summon. He would be an extremely strong, borderline SC chassis. Naturally he would have stealth and glamour(and probably magic being) however he should be a strong mage in nature, earth, with minor Air. His presense of course would give man access to the all important Earth 3

Titania: She would be the second goal of the summon. She would be a slight improvement of the faerie queen chassis given that she is of course the high queen of the faerie. But in addition to her regular paths, she would give man Astral 3, opening them up towards ever so many useful things.

Puck would be the trickster and the court jester. While stronger than the average commander, and possessing stealth and glamour he wouldn't be a terribly good thug. That being said, he would provide a great deal of magic diverisity with Fire 3, strong astral magic, and minor air.

The final component of the court would be shoe horned in mythology wise. I figure 4 summons would work from the round numbers standpoint, and the fact that Man is needing all the help it can get. The summon would be Tam Lim, the Faerie champion and the Queen's favorite. He would be a cross between his name sake and the mid-summer nights dream's Demetrius so he should probably possess the head of an @ss. He would be very much thuggable, and possess the usual fey traits but he would contribute much to magic diversity through his possession of water 3, strong air and minor fire.

I hope these musings are of some interest to people.

[AreaOfEffect]

Originally Posted by Graeme Dice

This statement makes no sense. That players might choose the wrong tool for a job does not make the presence of more tools a weakness.

Forgive me. The addition of more tools does indeed make the nation stronger. However, you can't ignore the fact that enticing players toward a dead end isn't somehow counterproductive. I'm mostly worried that people put too much stock into the Hall of Fame and decide that nations need a boost because they aren't winning. The slippery slope of this is that you buff a nation so that new players find it easy to use and experienced players become unstoppable when using them.

Originally Posted by thejeff

Since most didn't bother using the sacreds in vanilla (or past CBM versions), diversity was never a problem before for Man?
You've only got nature and air above 1! The only other paths you even get at 1 are Earth and Water. Everything else has to come off your god. Not just casting and forging, but also any site searching.
You can't even make air boosters with your nationals. Neither of those paths let you expand into other paths with summons.
Your god can't carry the whole nation.

They're not even the best in their age at either of those paths. Which don't even synergize well.

Most forget that astral magic can strengthen most of your other paths with ease. One ring of wizardry gets you an earth booster and your second water booster. That same ring gets you to Air 4, which removes that requirement from your god as well. Also, you shouldn't discount the effectiveness of manual site searching, even with only one skill in a path. Blood is handled with scouts. All you need to cover is Fire, Death, and Astral.

Yeah, I'm with you on the synergy though. I mean, Thunder Strike and Soothing Song! Lame! Panic and False Horror combined with stealth units! Suck! They don't even have any solid MR spells like Stream of Life, Sleep, or Confusion. I mean its not like some of the best battlefield buff spells in alteration and enchantment happen to all be nature and air spells. Now if only they could summon a flying ethereal size 6 trampler to deal with lightning resistant troops for one gem a piece, or perhaps a flock of smaller units that all deal armor negating damage.

Lots of times people look at what they don't have more often then they look at what they do have. Sure, I'm all for Man getting a boost to diversity. Still, I'm not so quick to just start throwing astral on a bunch of mages. Particularly astral magic as that might come back to bite you when a real astral nation starts casting mage dual.


Forgive me QM, balancing a nation is harder then I'm sure most understand. Lots of people would just like to see Man suddenly 'fixed' not realizing that even a guru of dominions multi-player can't know the effects of many changes all taken at once.

[Foodstamp]

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

Forgive me. The addition of more tools does indeed make the nation stronger. However, you can't ignore the fact that enticing players toward a dead end isn't somehow counterproductive. I'm mostly worried that people put too much stock into the Hall of Fame and decide that nations need a boost because they aren't winning. The slippery slope of this is that you buff a nation so that new players find it easy to use and experienced players become unstoppable when using them.

Most forget that astral magic can strengthen most of your other paths with ease. One ring of wizardry gets you an earth booster and your second water booster. That same ring gets you to Air 4, which removes that requirement from your god as well. Also, you shouldn't discount the effectiveness of manual site searching, even with only one skill in a path. Blood is handled with scouts. All you need to cover is Fire, Death, and Astral.

Yeah, I'm with you on the synergy though. I mean, Thunder Strike and Soothing Song! Lame! Panic and False Horror combined with stealth units! Suck! They don't even have any solid MR spells like Stream of Life, Sleep, or Confusion. I mean its not like some of the best battlefield buff spells in alteration and enchantment happen to all be nature and air spells. Now if only they could summon a flying ethereal size 6 trampler to deal with lightning resistant troops for one gem a piece, or perhaps a flock of smaller units that all deal armor negating damage.

Lots of times people look at what they don't have more often then they look at what they do have. Sure, I'm all for Man getting a boost to diversity. Still, I'm not so quick to just start throwing astral on a bunch of mages. Particularly astral magic as that might come back to bite you when a real astral nation starts casting mage dual.


Forgive me QM, balancing a nation is harder then I'm sure most understand. Lots of people would just like to see Man suddenly 'fixed' not realizing that even a guru of dominions multi-player can't know the effects of many changes all taken at once.

You could have saved us a lot of time by saying "None of you are smart enough to use the new options properly and anything that follows this sentence is going to be condescending sarcasm."

[thejeff]

Originally Posted by AreaOfEffect

Yeah, I'm with you on the synergy though. I mean, Thunder Strike and Soothing Song! Lame! Panic and False Horror combined with stealth units! Suck! They don't even have any solid MR spells like Stream of Life, Sleep, or Confusion. I mean its not like some of the best battlefield buff spells in alteration and enchantment happen to all be nature and air spells. Now if only they could summon a flying ethereal size 6 trampler to deal with lightning resistant troops for one gem a piece, or perhaps a flock of smaller units that all deal armor negating damage.

I was thinking more of cross paths spells and probably should have been more clear. Obviously both Air and Nature have good spells. Soothing Song would synergize with almost anything. Panic & False Horror is a good combination. The others aren't synergy, just a bunch of good spells.

[AreaOfEffect]

So even though you have a good selection of spells, its not good enough because you don't have a really cool cross-path spell?