PBW : Paranoia2

[Phoenix-D]

I'm in. Prefer no gifing at all. If it is allowed, I suggest the condition for victory be when your target:

-has no planets
-has no SELF BUILT colony ships (i.e. those with a picture matching your races).

And no gifting of colony ships allowed. This allows better enforcement, though trading beforehand is still a possibility (which is why no gifting c ships- so there is -no- reason to have a colony ship with another race's image)

[Unknown_Enemy]

SUMMARY :
- Victory condition : you win when your target has no planets.
- Ship trading can only take place between similar class ships.
- Spirit of rules prevail on the letter of rules, differences of interpretations shall be handled by Tescosamosa

First,
Victory condition : you win when your target has no planets. Your foe can still have tens of ships, if it has no planets it is dead and you win.

Second,
We all agree that ship gifts is forbidden. But I would like to keep in ship trading as well as pop trading. It can spice the political game.
So what would you think of the following rule :
Ship trading can only take place between similar class ships. Which means a colony ship must be exchanged versus another colony ship, a light cruiser versus another light cruiser and so on.

All rules can be bypassed, and at the end of the game, we will have to stick to the spirit of the rule rather than the letter of it. That point will be enforced by Tescosamosa (who's gonna get lots of new "friends" ) as a non playing game master.

Third,
PvK, your points are valid, but we cannot enforce every rule in the game due to limitations of SE4. That is why I think it is better to have a "juge" as Tesco to handle the difficult end game. Indeed the end of Paranoia is difficult, you get all players suddenly loosing while just ONE is declared victorious.

Now to my dear friend Nocturnal :
If I have to send in my fleets to stop your enemy and save your ***, I am in NO WAY about to give you anything. I prefer to keep a powerless neighbour that way. And eventually if you are a small empire, you could not support the ships I am giving you.

Remember : you will NEVER help someone because you like him, but just because you don't want to loose.

To se5a
remember that there is no allied victory in this game. And partnership can be a political tool. It was eficiently used in the Last game....

PS : Welcome to Phoenix-D, bla-bla-bla....kill him kick .

[ November 26, 2003, 15:14: Message edited by: Unknown_Enemy ]

[Phoenix-D]

Uh, no, I didn't.

I was the one who took over a weak empire and spent the rest of the game trying to build a sphereworld so I could have SOME hope of living without trade.

[spoon]

Originally posted by Unknown_Enemy:

- Spirit of rules prevail on the letter of rules, differences of interpretations shall be handled by Tescosamosa
[/b]

I'm personally confused as to what the Spirit of the Rules is. And I don't understand what limiting trading to like class ships is supposed to accomplish. Gifting of warships seems like a great thing to allow. Providing other players with remote colonies seems like something that will painfully prolong the length of the game...

[PvK]

Spirit of the Rules didn't hold up well in the Last game. Without a clear definition, people played to different victory conditions. Hopefully the spirit can be explained quite clearly beforehand, so players may most or all agree on what game they are playing, and not get surprised when the game ends in a way that seems to violate the spirit they had in mind.

E.g. Last time the weakest player made almost no effort to stay alive, and got practically all his neighbors to hate him by attacking them, ignoring their gifts, etc. Another player who was one of the strongest then decided to try to hold the weakest player hostage to convince his target to destroy his own system grav shields, because he didn't think he could beat his target, and when that didn't work, he just killed off the weakest player (who wasn't his target) to end the game. It seemed to me those were both pretty big violations of what I thought the spirit of the game was, since the main rules were:

1. Stay Alive
2. Kill your target.
3. Keep all other players alive.

PvK

[Unknown_Enemy]

Wrong, it was the Drachir who decided to end the game, and did it.
Then, the politic that was used did not work, but nothing in the game can nor must prevent you from choosing who will NOT win.

It is part of paranoia.
So I would say that the rule to keep other empires alive is not mandatory. It is just an obligation as long as you think you can win.

You seem to be quite bitter about this game. I also notice you discuss much the details of the rules, but did not join.


[ November 26, 2003, 22:23: Message edited by: Unknown_Enemy ]

[PvK]

I'm pointing out the weaknesses of the Last game, in case it saves some of the players of this game some grief later on. Seems like it'd be good to benefit from past experience. I'm not bitter about the Last game, though I did end up feeling like I wished I hadn't spent a lot of time playing the end game, because of the anticlimactic ending. The game was still interesting. I wouldn't've guessed that players would get so apathetic and suicidal and end the game for everyone else out of ennui or whatever it was. However I wouldn't be interested in playing a game with the same weaknesses. It seemed pretty clear to me that such a game should not have a way to easily perpetuate a target, meaning no clever but easy loopholes (such as trading an escort for a boarding ship stacked with a colony ship next to an empty planet). And, that the rules should be very clearly agreed on beforehand, especially as regards players who stop caring about trying to win, and just go and end the game. If it's a valid move to end the game by killing someone besides your target on purpose, shouldn't that be at least defined in the victory conditions? Does the player who ends the game in a loss on pupose lose worse for being responsible for it? Or do they get some sort of consolation prize, so killing anyone else can be seen as a secondary objective? Does the person whose target died really win, even if they weren't even nearby when it happened?

PvK