Petition to Save the Moloch!

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
The only combat advantage that LoD has is better fear. Take out imps and you will get and UBER pretender with BEST combat stats in game that EVERYONE will use.

The prince of death also has the advantage that he has has an encumbrance of 0, which is extremely useful, and allows him to wear any piece of armour that he could ever want.

The Moloch didn't generate Imps in Dominions 1, there he actually had a command to summon devils, and he really wasn't that overpowered. He also is currently just a bit beefier Version of an archdevil.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Daynarr:
And, btw, he has far better combats stats then LoD. Unless you don’t consider 20 vs. 15 attack (not counting fire bonus), fire immunity, ambidexterity and fire magic (which is far better in combat then death) an advantage.

These certainly account for his 25 extra points in cost, but Imps make this little edge useless, since all you have to do is kill the stupid imps, and they practically beg for it, flinging themselves into the enemy like that, and the Moloch is gone, possibly dead, if you planned it.

As for Fire Magic being better in combat than Death, that's debatable. Fire has Phoenix Pyre and Fire Shield, which are certainly neat...but Death has Soul Vortex, which allows the aspiring SC to both damage his enemies in a radius, and alleviate the need for a lifestealing weapon.

Fire certainly has excellent artillery spells, but this is useless for an SC, unless your intent is to use the Moloch as an artillery caster, which is something he can do well, but makes his combat stats mostly irrelevant in that case. Besides, Death has Drain Life. The PoD set for drain life/summon chaff will be far more effective as an anti-SC duellist than the Moloch will.

[Graeme Dice]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
Fire certainly has excellent artillery spells, but this is useless for an SC, unless your intent is to use the Moloch as an artillery caster, which is something he can do well, but makes his combat stats mostly irrelevant in that case.

Well, with fire 9, he can do both, thanks to the huge fatigue reductions he will experience. Try Phoenix Pyre, Heat from Hell, Firestorm, Flame Storm, Flame Storm, attack. Admittedly, he may go unconscious at some point, but all you need there is someone to cast relief or for a lifestealing target to show up close to him.

[Norfleet]

Originally posted by Graeme Dice:
Well, with fire 9, he can do both, thanks to the huge fatigue reductions he will experience. Try Phoenix Pyre, Heat from Hell, Firestorm, Flame Storm, Flame Storm, attack. Admittedly, he may go unconscious at some point, but all you need there is someone to cast relief or for a lifestealing target to show up close to him.

Yes, once you have relief, if you feel like towing a little flying minion to relief you, that's always an option, but a mage in the back won't solve your imp problem, and the troops that can both keep up with the Moloch in flight and not be annihilated by this kind of abusive behavior tends to be limited to Devils and Iron Dragons. Or maybe some more imps leftover from an HfH.

No one's arguing that the Moloch makes a fine devil commander, though. Hmm....

You know, the Lord of the Night doesn't rout which his fiends bite it. I wonder if the Moloch would still rout if he were commanding devils, the Imps died first, and then the devils died?

[ July 06, 2004, 03:39: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

[major^3]

there really is no use arguing that "he can still be useful in combat you dont know how to use him" because the imps *are* supposed to be a benefit but are really a hindrance because the Moloch routs AS SOON AS they die and they die fast because they fly and enter combat immediately and are weak.

the only thing that needs to be done is code the moloch not to rout when his imps die, that is it!

[PvK]

Originally posted by Norfleet:
...
No one's arguing that the Moloch makes a fine devil commander, though. Hmm....
...

Maybe because we have been abstaining from participating in discussions where people abUSE the root "use" and spout inaccurate hyperbole. Moloch with devils and/or other strong fliers under his command is flaming death from above.

Graeme is also of course entirely correct that characters with high fire magic can scorch the earth and then fly in to disembowel the survivors, without much fatigue, and with nice penetration bonuses, etc.

Routing when the imps die is a bug which should be fixed, but saying the Moloch is "useless" just proves that all of Norfleet's Messages should be censored with a filter than replaces all assertions of "uselessness" with phrases such as "inefficient", "problematic", "sub-optimal", "sub-par", "imperfect", "flawed", "not the best", "not able to fly 3 provinces and wipe out an entire army by himself in one turn with a <1% risk of affliction", etc.

PvK

[NTJedi]

I agree the Moloch should be fixed. It's not just the Moloch which needs fixing... other important fixes/improvements include:

1) The auto-killing of attacking units after X amount of turns during battle should be switched into an auto-retreat.

2) Improving the Arena Death Match event so human players view it as worthwhile sending someone... the prize is not worth the life of a good commander. Also computer opponents should NOT be sending their pretenders into the Arena Death Match event... that's a big flaw.

--------

All of these topics have been around for awhile... would be nice to get a developers opinion about these suggested improvements. For example if we knew the developers were not going to change the Moloch or one of these other suggestions then we'd stop seeing them over and over.