Faerun - started

Huzurdaddi · #1 May 13th, 2005, 09:46 PM

I don't really think that Vampires are super abusable. They generate a steady stream of revenue but it is very small ( ~ 2 blood slaves per turn ). This gives them a ROI of something like 30 turns which is in line with other gem producers.

CUnknown the reason why gem producers are good even with 75% sites is that this is an FFA. If there were only 2 sides going at it then generators would not be a huge deal. However generators allow the player who does not get into conflict to gain far more than those that go for conflict ( unless there is a very quick resolution, which really does not happen that quickly ).

I have no problem with gem producers in small tight games with 2 players or heck with 3. But as the number of players increases the desire to hoard increases rather dramatically.

We'll see what happens. I think that Boron's 1st crack at stopping Hoarding was decent. But I can live with Hoarding at full power ... I suppose. I also have not checked out Zen's latest spell mod but I bet he does not nerf battlefield spells anywhere nearly as much as they were nerfed in the last Faerun game. So that will be interesting. Warthful Skies are here again!

dian · #2 May 14th, 2005, 08:45 AM

Hi, guys. Can i play with Pythium? If possible, i'll do it.

PashaDawg · #3 May 14th, 2005, 09:29 AM

Welcome, Dian!

Catquiet · #4 May 14th, 2005, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Huzurdaddi said:
I don't really think that Vampires are super abusable. They generate a steady stream of revenue but it is very small ( ~ 2 blood slaves per turn ). This gives them a ROI of something like 30 turns which is in line with other gem producers.

Vampire Lords can also summon one vampire(flying, immortal, ethereal, stealthy, life drain) each turn, that's the abusable part. So... no gem-generators, no soul contracts, and add upkeep to Vampires and Vampire Lords.

Reverend Zombie · #5 May 14th, 2005, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Catquiet said:
Vampire Lords can also summon one vampire(flying, immortal, ethereal, stealthy, life drain) each turn, that's the abusable part. So... no gem-generators, no soul contracts, and add upkeep to Vampires and Vampire Lords.

So far I see two votes against additional nerfing (Oversway + me).

Others seem to be in favor of something, but there is no agreement so far that I can see on exactly what form the additional nerfs should take.

I think we have 17 players now.

Time to put it to a formal vote?

Saber Cherry · #6 May 14th, 2005, 01:51 PM

Most undead should never, ever need upkeep. However, Vampires - and possibly Liches / Demiliches - are different. Vampires like to live in the lap of luxury, and have all the normal human desires... moreso even than humans.

How do these numbers sound?

Scheme 1: Low costs, solely to prevent mega-abuse.

Vampire: 25g
Vampire Count: 75g (Cheap, as BF Ulm's specialty)
Vampire Lord: 180g

Scheme 2: Costs in rough accordance with unit power.

Vampire: 30g
Vampire Count: 100g (Cheap, as BF Ulm's specialty)
Vampire Lord: 280g

Scheme 3: High costs to reflect the exorbitant lifestyle and tastes of Vampires.

Vampire: 40g
Vampire Count: 140g (Cheap, as BF Ulm's specialty)
Vampire Lord: 380g

PashaDawg · #7 May 14th, 2005, 02:01 PM

Vote! Vote!

Boron · #8 May 14th, 2005, 02:05 PM

Welcome Dian.

So now lets definitely vote.

First just a simple vote for one of the 3 choices:

-No additional nerfs
-"Balanced" Hoard items
-extremely nerfed Hoard items

If the majority votes into one direction then we will do this direction, if it doesn't and we don't get a simple 50% majority for something then Aku the host decides.

So happy voting

Boron · #9 May 14th, 2005, 02:10 PM

According Vampires we need no nerf at all imo:
Zens Spell mod raised the price for them to 77 Blood.
And with Zen's Spell mod there is no wish.

So even Abysia should have big troubles getting a higher blood income then 500 blood per turn until very lategame.

And in very lategame you can do anti-blood strats like plague etc. .

Huzurdaddi · #10 May 14th, 2005, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Catquiet said:

Quote:

Huzurdaddi said:
I don't really think that Vampires are super abusable. They generate a steady stream of revenue but it is very small ( ~ 2 blood slaves per turn ). This gives them a ROI of something like 30 turns which is in line with other gem producers.

Vampire Lords can also summon one vampire(flying, immortal, ethereal, stealthy, life drain) each turn, that's the abusable part. So... no gem-generators, no soul contracts, and add upkeep to Vampires and Vampire Lords.

It's the summon allies which I was exactly addressing. The summoning of a vampire ally is ~= to 2 maybe 3 blood per turn. That makes it a 25-30 turn ROI which is more than fine. Using vampires lords to summon allies is a VERY sub-optimal way to use them and gives returns far below any other gem generator even post nerf.

It is *not* a strategy that I would use.

However I *would* normally summon VL's as they are excellent summons. Putting maintainace on them would pretty much crush that.

I'm for nerfing Soul Contracts as they are too efficient ( and I think Boron's Changes are fine, in my mod I put them at 160 blood but that was due to the game being played in 2.15 where stealthy units could not be killed by horrors in 2.16 this is fixed ). However I'm not for maintainace on vampire lords. They are one of the few mass producable leaders that blood has. Blood needs them badly. Zen's mod already nerfs them rather badly.