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El_Phil said:
**smacks head into wall repeatedly**
Starhawk pleas stop generalising about what utopia is. You keep getting it wrong. As has been eloquently stated by AT the Feddies are far from being Utopia and almost no-one thought they were. Hell you could put a better argument for Klingons than the UFP!
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What I'm saying is that we ourselves don't know WHAT a true Utopia would be and THE ICARAN view not what I personally think a Utopia would be as I stated already.
And a Utopia after a while would simply be handed down from generation to generation after the first generation's hard work the rest would just get it "handed" to them so to speak. Which is another reason Icarans would see this as at the very least odd.
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I didn't write the list so the terms aren't perfect, but the thrust was and is accurate:
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Okay gotcha
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Hierachacal society. Well is anyone but the Praetors family ever going to lead the empire? Can anyone less senior than a noble question their actions? If a nobles son/daughter is competent they are assured of the job aren't they?
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Nope but don't automatically assume that this is "oooh evil" because our own ancestors lived this way for MILLENIA without minding.
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Democracy: So they've been so brainwashed they don't even want to influence how their country is run!
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*Smashes head into wall repeatedly*
And you just keep proving how arrogant we "Democratics" can be that we automatically think our way is the only way, I will say this AGAIN
Icara has never EVER EVER had a chance for democracy and after millenia of order and stability Democracy now seems like chaos:
And El_Phil Democracies are hardly stable as we see even here in the United States where people constantly fight over what is "right" in politics and what do we get in return? Political corruption a President very few trust but none can do anything about, a Govenrment that dictates what we can and can not do.
Does this sound good? No but it's the way all Democracies are bound as history shows Democratic goverments always fall it's just a matter of time before they rise again after their fall that changes. After Athens it took Millenia for a "Democracy" to come back, and Don't point out the Roman Republic because that was also run only by the elite as only the Equestrians (SP?) were allowed to vote for the Senate.
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State propaganda is still propaganda. And supressing other news sources and view points, either actively (kill 'em) or passively (shunned by society and no radio/TV/xxxx transmissions)
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Propoganda is the standard of all governments it's just a matter that OUR propoganda is good and THEIRS is bad. Our beloved democracies (and I say that sincerely) use propoganda at the drop of a hat so again you can not judge an entire civilization by this.
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Given that dissent can be just questioning the status quo and wanting change the difference is in how they're treated by the goverment. In the west are disliked but tolerated (they want to stay in goverment) and dissidents in, say Iran are shot, beaten or tortured. Or all three. Icara appears to be in the Iran camp on this one.
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You
can question the government and they won't shoot you they just won't like you and your neighbors may beat the holy living hell out of you.
REBELS are shot and CULT LEADERS are shot because they are seen as traitors who can not be redeemed.
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Personality Cult not religion! You know like Mao or Stalin had? Quasi-religious cult based around how xxx is beyond question, wonderfull in every way and is the only person to lead them.
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That again is the view of someone who has been raised in a democracy to belive that this is evil and wrong and ooooh the horror.
Icarans don't worship the Praetor and you simply changed course from that to basiccally rephrasing "They Worship the Praetor" they see him as a figurehead who is to be trusted and followed yes and for the most part yes his word is law except that he also has the Nobles to run the day to day affairs of state with him so in that way he's not much different from a King of old Europe.
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Makes perfect sense. Most people think that Traditional life (ie. before the party/preator/dictator) took over and "improved" life for all was primitive and rubbish. The religions of that time were also nonsensical. However the state religion your 'Path' is what everyone should follow. (If the state disdains any who don't follow one religion, it is a state religion. You don't need the goverment enforcing doctrine for it to be a state religion.)
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The Three Kings WERE bad and corrupt which is why Icarans readily accepted the Praetorian line in the first place and if you read the intro you'd know that wouldn't you?
Now I love how you keep throwing at the line "Traditional" well I hate to say this YET AGAIN they are NOT AMERICANS their traditions are from a different culture and for the most part their Traditional life has not changed much at all except for where technology/time is involved.
"The Path" was always the Icaran faith so you are making a MAJOR assumption in assuming it is a creation of the state. How do you think the Praetor was seen as "Chosen By God" if the faith was not already there before he took power? In fact "The Path" helped the Praetorian line run Icara because they did NOT have to enforce a religion that was against the nature of Icarans.
And if you want to call it a "State Religion" simply because it is what the bulk of Icara follows then you could easily call Christianity a "State Religion" in the West at it is the primary religion of the west, or you should call Buddhism a "State Religion" in Asia because the bulk of Asians are buddhist etc.
Yes Icara has outlawed all but a few religions but it's also because those religions have never had a good reputation for breeding "stable" individuals in their view. And also because lets face it when the bulk of a Population is homogenous in both race and religion then you are bound to get some intolerance towards other religions.
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* The "memory" of institutions overriding or taking precidence over human memory. - History is what is written down and what the goverment says it is, not what happened (or you remember). This one may or may not apply, I've seen no evidence either way.
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Nope not really.
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* Insistence by the forces of the establishment that
it provides the best of all possible worlds. - Well when a society has been instituionaly (not technologicaly) stagnant for millenia and enforces the status quo with instant vicious reprisals I'd say they're 'insisting' the establishment can't get better.
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And yet you said they were not traditional
Let's face it your starting to tug at strings here, I have clearly said that the Empire has evolved over the Millenia, just at a slower rate then that of what our societies would.
I also clearly stated earlier that the closer to the "Modern Empire" you'd get in history the less "viscious" the government becomes.
They are TRADITIONALISTS for the most part because it ties them to their heritage, it ties them to their ancestors and to their past. Tradition has dictated the development of their institutions yes but why is this automatically bad?
Look at America we have NO CULTURE we are pretty much a melting pot who's citizens for the most part don't know any of the traditions of their ancestors or their great grand parents even. I mean I've met a lot of people who don't even know WHAT heritage they are from.
To an Icaran THAT would be a bad thing because it would be seen as a disgrace and an insult because you can't be bothered having traditions that tie you to the past of your people. So what we see as "Progress" they see as forgetting the importance of the past.
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The entire education system is based on making sure no-one wnats change and to produce malleable citizens who don't question orders. Think about it you're brought up to put others first and serve the common good. But who decides the common good? Nobles and Praetor of course! And the praetor's orders are final. You can't question the great leader, this systems worked for generations don't question it!
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LOL Yeah here you're right sort of their educational system IS DESIGNED to create citizens who beleive in the greater good over themselves, of the survival of the government (I.e the icaran People not just the politicos) over their own hide.
They are in a dangerous world surrounded by hostile powers, and as they go out into space they meet a bunch of terrifying aliens who are not the friendly little buggers we thought they'd be.
So yeah the Icarans don't want change because the last thing you need when your Empire is forever at risk of invasion is to have internal strife as a hotheaded little punk with a new political idea decides to come along and cry "Vive Le Revolution".
If you haven't noticed most revolutions end badly for both parties invovled.
And like I said El_Phil you yourself show signs of the same intolerance you accuse them of having because you can't even acknowledge that for a culture with a totally UNAMERICAN way of doing things might not be evil and corrupt and exploiting it's citizens.
It's funny how that intolerance toward a new way of doing things can cut both ways ain't it?
The point I have in making Icara is to create a society that has both good and bad qualities like ANY society and that has a different view of how to run things then the "Lets go Democracy!" way of things we always see in Sci-Fi.
Icara is not the "Galactic Empire" where anyone who questions the status quo is shot, they are shunned yes just like anyone in the US who goes "Let's go Communism!" would be.
We've been "brainwashed" to belive Democracy is the greatest form of government ever if you want to look at it the way you are looking at the way Icarans are raised to belive their government is the best way to go.
How often do you hear a President of the US going "Yah know Communism, Socialism they sound okay to me." it doesn't happen so that's State Insistance that "Democracy is the only way and it has been for centuries so shut up and don't question that."
Re: Semi-OT: The Icaran Empire Preview (the book o
okay I forgot to spellcheck there.
Hybrid Mode
