MA Shinuyama-MP-boost the Kappas

[Xietor]

Ok,

I stand corrected, but I still think a turtle shield would fit thematically with a Kappa. After all, they wear a turtle shell on their back.

And maybe they would only lose fatigue if they suffer a blow to their head, since that is where the depression is that holds the water.

Or you could let them buy a Shisha, capital only for 250 gold
each!


http://img66.imageshack.us/my.php?image=shishivs6.jpg

[quantum_mechani]

Of all the units to complain of needing rebalancing, I don't think the Kappa is one of them. Not only are they some of the only high prot/low rec troops in the game, there are always cases were being able to get underwater easy is a niche in itself. They are not that powerful a unit, they are what I think more units should be like- useful in some cases, with interesting advantages and disadvantages.

[Xietor]

QM,

Obviously you are fairly adept at balance issues, but many races have signature units that discourage early rushes. Say from a dom 10 wyrm, vans, etc.

For instance, MA Pythium has a hydra, many races have a capital only or blessed units. Several races have size 6 tramplers, that when combined with high morale units can be tough early.

What unit, if you do not mind me asking, is that for MA Shinuyama? I understand that some other races also have this vulnerability. While there is nothing wrong with the Kappa as is, I feel the race could use a tweak upwards.

And since the Kappa is such a cool unit, especially with a bone breaking attack, that is the unit i think would be a nice one to boost.

[Sandman]

I like the fact that Shinyuyama breaks the mold a bit. There should be more nations like it.

[TwoBits]

Shinuyama indeed has a rough time in the early game. Its starting army is pathetic, has no recruitable sacreds, and you noted has no units with shields, and its only really good regular units are somewhat expensive.

But if Shinuyama manages to survive into the mid game, they become damn near juggernauts. Their magic is unparalleled. They can cast site searching spells in 5 magic paths (FEWND). With simple boosters (no unique items or rings of Wizardry, etc.) on their Bakemono sorcerers, they can have mages with F5, W4, E4, or D5 (if you get lucky with your 10% chance, you can even do one better - and also Staffs of Elemental Mastery are also easily within reach).

By late game, they can be spewing out great deals of deadly magic, in combat and ritually. On the battlefield, Fire Arrows is just the tip of the iceberg.

So basically, to pay for all that later game goodness, you have to run the gauntlet in the early game. That's just part of the deal.

So in SP, recruiting indie infantry (w/ shields) ASAP is a good idea. You can do it in MP too, but that wont save you from a nasty rush. Your big tools there will be diplomacy and trade (the wide variety of quality items you can forge should make a nice carrot). That and the realization that sometimes your just screwed

[Xietor]

Agree.

But is there really any downside to giving the Kappa a turtle shield? Even with a shield, MA Shinuyama is not going to jump into the upper pack of MA MP nations. What it will do is give them a viable(though expensive) infantry unit.

Their mages are nice, but at 300 gold expensive. And they start extremely old, demanding 3 growth scale. Though at least they are sacred, so they are not bad to maintain.

[Shovah32]

The downside is that it will move the Kappas, currently a niche unit, into the realm of general infantry unit(high gold cost but 2 attacks, high prot and a shield with low resource cost to boot).

[Xietor]

MA Shin has no infantry, has no mounted units, has no sacred units. Giving them a high cost infantry unit, with a mr of 8!!!, helps in part to restore the vague idea that is named "balance."

And, if their fatigue is left as is, adding the shield helps, but still leaves them as an overpriced, but very vulnerable infantry unit.

I do see the argument for leaving the Kappa as a niche unit. And I am not saying anything anyone said is "wrong."
But I am of the firm belief the race could use an upward tweak, and that was my suggestion.

I would raise their resource cost some, if a shield is added, but not a ton. Perhaps to 10.

[quantum_mechani]

Xietor said:
For instance, MA Pythium has a hydra, many races have a capital only or blessed units. Several races have size 6 tramplers, that when combined with high morale units can be tough early.

What unit, if you do not mind me asking, is that for MA Shinuyama? I understand that some other races also have this vulnerability. While there is nothing wrong with the Kappa as is, I feel the race could use a tweak upwards.

I would take the kappas as recruitables anytime over hyrdas, at thier base game cost. The only thing hydras could maybe be cost effective against is an elephant rush, and Pythium already has tons of astral magic to take care of that. As for 'rush-breaker' units in general, they are basically the same thing as rush units- almost exclusively big tramplers or bless units. If there is something that needs to be fixed here, it's that such a small subsection of units can utterly dominate the early game.

[Xietor]

Exactly what i was thinking with the hydra-they can stop a herd of size 6 tramplers in their tracks!