OT: US President (US Dom Players only)

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

Government running healthcare is not the way to proceed. First the working class should not pay for the healthcare of those who are lazy and choose not to work. I could understand those who are temporarily out of work or disabled, but not those who choose to remain out of work despite no health problems....

All I can say is I am slightly boggled by this point of view. Is it really worth letting innocent but unlucky people go without health care just because a few people abuse the system? I mean, abuse of the system is unfortunate but a little more taxes won't kill anyone, as opposed to the alternative. And it's not like the vast majority of people that can't afford health care don't work, either.

[chrispedersen]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

All I can say is I am slightly boggled by this point of view. Is it really worth letting innocent but unlucky people go without health care just because a few people abuse the system? I mean, abuse of the system is unfortunate but a little more taxes won't kill anyone, as opposed to the alternative. And it's not like the vast majority of people that can't afford health care don't work, either.

If you ever worked in a community health clinic you'd know it wasn't a few people. Its a never ending stream.

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by chrispedersen

If you ever worked in a community health clinic you'd know it wasn't a few people. Its a never ending stream.

That's just a dodge. Rephrased question so: is it really worth letting innocent but unlucky people DIE without health care because a "never ending stream" abuses the system?
Isn't it far worse than the infamous "blaming the victim"?
Isn't the right way, improving efficiency (stopping the abuse) and help all the people in need?

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

All I can say is I am slightly boggled by this point of view. Is it really worth letting innocent but unlucky people go without health care just because a few people abuse the system? I mean, abuse of the system is unfortunate but a little more taxes won't kill anyone, as opposed to the alternative. And it's not like the vast majority of people that can't afford health care don't work, either.

It's not simple to understand, but the fastest explanation is we have to look at long term solutions and not the short term solutions. The united states is a huge country with millions of homeless and its not just the homeless that are currently without healthcare. A universal healthcare would not only be more costly, but it would introduce several new problems.

First and probably least important would be everyone paying higher taxes. As I've written before our government has problems with existing departments and giving them a new responsibility would only bring new problems.

Second our doctors would be changed to a fixed government income, currently many of the best doctors from Canada move to America because of much higher pay which is the result of competition from doctor offices and specialized treatment centers. What do you think will happen within the USA to doctors once they're told the government is now the source of their future fixed income. As mentioned in other forums they will be moving out of the country to setup their offices and treatment centers.

Third and quite serious would be massively longer waiting times when going to the hospitals and offices. Currently the waiting period is 3hours at the hospitals for Urgent Care, yet this will drastically increase. There's plenty of reports describing how Europeans travel to other countries for healthcare because the waiting times are unreasonably long. The next time I have a kidney stone I don't want to discover the average waiting time is now 24hours.

Fourth is the government will never release healthcare responsibility once started, because its another source for taking money from the people. This means IF the universal healthcare changes everyones healthcare into a nightmare we will be permanently stuck under government control. The people won't be able to say, "WAIT... change it back because I didn't expect X and Y to be one of the side effects."


I believe that someday... it's possible for our government to be wise enough and experienced enough to handle a great responsiblity such as universal healthcare. Without a doubt our government cannot handle such a responsibility today and it would be a mistake.

[quantum_mechani]

Originally Posted by NTJedi

It's not simple to understand, but the fastest explanation is we have to look at long term solutions and not the short term solutions. The united states is a huge country with millions of homeless and its not just the homeless that are currently without healthcare. A universal healthcare would not only be more costly, but it would introduce several new problems.

First and probably least important would be everyone paying higher taxes. As I've written before our government has problems with existing departments and giving them a new responsibility would only bring new problems.

Second our doctors would be changed to a fixed government income, currently many of the best doctors from Canada move to America because of much higher pay which is the result of competition from doctor offices and specialized treatment centers. What do you think will happen within the USA to doctors once they're told the government is now the source of their future fixed income. As mentioned in other forums they will be moving out of the country to setup their offices and treatment centers.

Third and quite serious would be massively longer waiting times when going to the hospitals and offices. Currently the waiting period is 3hours at the hospitals for Urgent Care, yet this will drastically increase. There's plenty of reports describing how Europeans travel to other countries for healthcare because the waiting times are unreasonably long. The next time I have a kidney stone I don't want to discover the average waiting time is now 24hours.

Fourth is the government will never release healthcare responsibility once started, because its another source for taking money from the people. This means IF the universal healthcare changes everyones healthcare into a nightmare we will be permanently stuck under government control. The people won't be able to say, "WAIT... change it back because I didn't expect X and Y to be one of the side effects."


I believe that someday... it's possible for our government to be wise enough and experienced enough to handle a great responsiblity such as universal healthcare. Without a doubt our government cannot handle such a responsibility today and it would be a mistake.

Providing universal health care by no means means private health care is not an option. Lets say a public healthcare system is a bloated enterprise that only saves half as many people as it could otherwise, that's still a heck of a lot better than nothing for the people without other options.

So, if lives are worth less than some extra toys for the rich (from lower taxes) and some government inefficiency I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

[NTJedi]

Originally Posted by quantum_mechani

Providing universal health care by no means means private health care is not an option. Lets say a public healthcare system is a bloated enterprise that only saves half as many people as it could otherwise, that's still a heck of a lot better than nothing for the people without other options.

So, if lives are worth less than some extra toys for the rich (from lower taxes) and some government inefficiency I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

That still leaves problems 1, 3 and 4. As I wrote earlier our government clearly is not wise enough or experienced enough to handle a critical responsibility such as universal public healthcare. If the government has major problems with existing departments it should not be given the responsibility of a new department. Asking for this QUICK FIX will only bring new problems. Healthcare needs to be researched and carefully tested with government and non-government options and then gradually expanded.
As I wrote earlier the wealthy have loop holes for getting around taxes which is why Bill Gates paid ZERO taxes in 1999. Raising their taxes won't change their lives or our lives because they'd use the multiple loop holes or sneak new loop holes in thru congress. Removing their loop holes will bring change, but this would take congress.