Forum Chat Bar & Grill

[Raging Deadstar]

Credit to the Dutch I must say. They did technically win the 2nd and 3rd Anglo-Dutch Wars. And the rise of the British Royal Navy to it's dominance of the seas was helped by the small issue of getting the majority of the Dutch Navy placed under our command.

You guys must have had the worst negotiators ever, The Dutch certainly ended up with the short end of the stick after the Glorious Revolution of 1688.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Well, the least the bastard could've done was merge the thrones and create one single Anglo-Dutch country, then we would've kicked some serious Frog butt, and the Spanish wouldn't have their Mexican silver mines and Manila Galleon operations once the Anglo-Dutch fleet showed up and pounded the living daylights out of them.

[Growltiger]

Chaps,

I tend to agree with a lot of this. I am not an expert Anglo-Dutch historian so cannot comment in detail, but as an Englishman, I have to say that two European nations which are strikingly similar to the English are the Dutch and the Danes.

I did kind of wonder if this was due to the Saxons, Frisians and Danes all coming from pretty much originating from the same part of Europe. May be it is, who knows.

As English, we only tend to remember Campertown (where we whupped the Dutch big style).

Got some indonesian friends who are not very polite about Dutch colonialism for some reason.

[Growltiger]

El Phil

I cannot remember the reference, but I do recall watching a very good documentary at Uni about an African nation in the circa 1400-1600 somewhere round present day Nigeria.

It talked about their highly developed artwork, culture and mentioned that they had smelting technology which in certain areas was more advanced than Europe. I think it fell apart in civil war etc

Given the links between the Arabs and East Africa, if Europe had not stuck their noses in, and the arabic nations of North Africa had been left to get on with it (no one can argue that the Moorish states were more advanced (certain from a cerebral basis) than the Christian states in 1400-1500) one must wonder what would have happened and what they would be like now.

Time to get a cup of coffee and stare out of the window for two hours whilst I cogitate.

[El_Phil]

Really I wasn't aware of that, developed civilisation in Nigeria. Blimey. It must have fallen apart fairly comprehensively to 'disapear' for all pracitcal purposes. Given the prevelance of copper around there, the Nigerian copper belt was and is huge, I would suspect copper working/smelting. Technical, versitile and significantly different from where Europe was heading towards Iron/Steel.

As for what would have happened had Europeans left Africa alone, it depends when you cut the links I suppose. The number system we use to this day is Arabic not Roman, I do remember something along the lines of Italian city state merchants bringing it back from North Africa. Don't forget ideas and inventions went both ways across the Med, cultures were 'Mediteranean' not 'South European'.

[Renegade 13]

Growltiger said:
Time to get a cup of coffee and stare out of the window for two hours whilst I cogitate.

An Englishman who drinks coffee, not tea? Unheard of!

[Growltiger]

English or otherwise, coffee is the grease that oils the wheels of industry!! (actually, I drink the coffee because the tea they have in my office is horrible!)

I'll see what I can dig up on the Nigerian civilisation. Cannot remember what it was called off hand.

Agree completely that ideas flow both ways, but I suppose my point is that if you left the African continent to develop by way of the flow of ideas rather than the rather large boot of colonialism, would have been interesting to see what happens.

Like what would the Zulu nation have grown into if left to its own devices and not us Britishers and the Dutch stomping all over and around it? Just a thought.

Maybe we would have Italian style city states throughout the African continent, maybe they would have been the agricultural and economic powers of the Western world,
what would have happended if it was them rather than the Europeans who colonised America, what would have happended if I had bumped into Angelina Jolie when young rather than the current Mrs Growltigga...

To many ifs, not enough coffee and certainly not enough time to stare out of the window speculating

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Africa was a rather well-cultured continent in some places with sophisticated artwork, technology, cities, actual non-famine, until the Europeans came and decided to "civilize" the place, turning it into the mess (major understatement here) it is today.

Growltiger said:
Got some indonesian friends who are not very polite about Dutch colonialism for some reason.

And what have I been trying to tell you all this time?!?

[El_Phil]

We've no idea Strat. We never do, that's the problem.

For a real question, what would have happened if the Spanish/Portugese hadn't pissed all over South America. Then stamped some more. Then started being really nasty to the place.

You could argue that stopping the Atzecs was probably a good thing, I have never been a big fan of tens of thousands of people being sacrificed alive to dark gods on a regular basis. However the Inca and many other advanced tribes, aside from a slight Llama obsession, didn't do anything to deserve extinction.

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

*sigh* Ok, one last time.

During the Dutch rule of Indonesia (or the Dutch East Indies, as they were called back then) we (the Dutch) exploited them (the Indonesians) like they were animals. They suffered from poverty and famine, while the Dutch governors, merchants and whatnots led luxurious lives in their spacious country houses, waited on hand and foot by Indonesian servants. We conquered the northern part of Sumatra (Aceh) in a bloody war, wiping out entire villages. When they declared their independence, we sent in troops to repeat the actions of the conquest of Aceh only then A.) they had more modern weapons and B.) we called it a "police" action.

Get the point now?