Smoke candles

[blitzkreig]

Mobhack & DRG

I can see your point. Seems daft to alter the oobs for things that may have been. I've still yet to see any photographic eviednece that smoke launchers were fitted to any German vehcile before late 1943. What I'm curious about is the smoke dispensers shown on chucks Sdkfz 222 pics and the ones I've seen on sdkfz 233 in Tunisa 1943 which look the same type, though these were mounted in two sets of three on the front of the armoured cars front mud guards.

These smoke laucnhers are very different in appearance to the ones fitted to the German tanks. Does any one know if these are smoke launchers as modeled in the game mechanics or the "smoke candles" Chuck has talked about.

Any ideas?

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

And this rack of smoke bombs is not a smoke discharger in SP game terms. S/D project bombs forward, immediately hiding the screened vehicle by breaking LOS.

Yup. I suspected that the early ‘smoke candle discharger’ would not be a smoke discharger in game terms when I added my info from the Osprey guide.

The same stern-based dischargers (armoured or unarmoured) were of course also fitted to early Sturmgeschutz.

[blitzkreig]

Originally Posted by blitzkreig

Mobhack & DRG

I've still yet to see any photographic eviednece that smoke launchers were fitted to any German vehcile before late 1943.?

typo chaps, I meant to say early 1943!

[chuckfourth]

Hi Don
I would read it as several tank "types" but it may indeed be just a few tanks. Having read the rest of the post it seems to me the posters first language isnt English.

[chuckfourth]

Well there does seem to be some confusion here, firstly as for rarity all the pz 3 from auf f had 5 of these these "smoke bombs" fitted as standard. the minimum introduction date for the smoke bomb thus becomes 07/40, according to the game, but these sites
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany/...iii-ausf-f.asp
"-auf f- Were issued to the Panzer divisions starting in late 1939"
and
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzerkampfwagen-iii.htm
""In September of 1939, another new variant - Ausf F (5-serie) entered production""
Seems the current in-game introduction date for unit 583 pz 3 auf f is about a year too late. 07/40 is the date that they began upgunning auf f to 50mm

that aside,

Auchtung panzer also has this to say regarding pz 3 auf f and smoke bombs.
"Ausf F vehicles were fitted with a hull rear mounted rack of five smoke generators remotely released from the turret"
note the use of the word release rather than fire or ignite. ie they are dropped on the ground.
comparing the employment of these smoke bombs to a diesel-injection smoke system thus becomes a nonsense. The injection system stays with the tank whereas the smoke candles/bombs are dropped on the ground allowing the tank to then reverse behind it. Or it can just turn away and drop them as it turns which probably gets the smoke between it and the AT gun even quicker.
esp as pz 3 can spin the tracks in opposite directions. ie turn on a dime.

OK then, the tank drops the smoke can and reverses over it to get out of sight.
Currently the game models the smoke bomb dropper the same as the smoke bomb discharger whats the downside not much, How long would that take to get behind the smoke, 10 seconds maybe 20 how long are the turns 3 minutes or more? Just pretend the game turn time to 3 minutes and 10 seconds. The game certainly has some other similar compromises. For example a landing craft can move its full movement points then the discharged vehicle can also moves its full movement points thats a 3 minute turn stretched into a 6 minute turn.

If the early panzer III's have their smoke bombs removed/ignored then AT guns can keep shooting at them for turn after turn, thats as many shots as they have ammunition. Whereas in reality they would get off only one or two shots before the tank would have reversed out of sight behind the smoke.
ie The pz 3 has to stand up to possibly hundreds of AT rounds when in reality it should only have to face up to one or two.
On the other hand,
Model the smoke bomb dropper the same as the smoke bomb discharger (as is currently the case in-game) and the AT gun will get only one shot at the pz3 rather than the -maybe- 2 it would have in reality.
ie the AT gun is only slightly disadvantaged, or not disadvantaged at all, depending on how long it takes a pz 3 to get behind its dropped smoke compared to the guns Rate of fire.

My Question is this, which is closer to reality?

Best Regards Chuck

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by Mobhack

The only S/D that I would be interested in hearing about for the Nazis would be the projector type as used in the game. Those seem to be rare until 43 or so from the look of things.

I’ve seen several pictures of the Flamingo – which was used during Operation Barbarossa in 1941 - which seem to show what may be three forward-projecting smoke dischargers. Here is one of them:



Source: Concord’s Armor Battles on the Eastern Front, Vol. 1.

There are a few more pictures/photos in this thread in the WW2inColor forum:

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3832

[thatguy96]

Discharger types were very common for flame tanks as one of the accepted tactics (at least according to Osprey's Flammpanzer book) was to cover targets in flame fuel, without igniting it, and then launch a smoke grenade at it to ignite the entire area.

[redcoat2]

Originally Posted by thatguy96

Discharger types were very common for flame tanks as one of the accepted tactics (at least according to Osprey's Flammpanzer book) was to cover targets in flame fuel, without igniting it, and then launch a smoke grenade at it to ignite the entire area.

Hmmmm. Maybe they were used for that purpose rather than for self-protection? Or … perhaps they could be used for either purpose?

[Mobhack]

Originally Posted by redcoat2

Hmmmm. Maybe they were used for that purpose rather than for self-protection? Or … perhaps they could be used for either purpose?

Smoke and para-illuminating rounds are usually pyrotechnic devices of some sort.

for example, on a recruits course we had the 2 inch mortars taken out of storage (they were armoury queens, only ever seen at the recruit course really).

The 2 inch smoke round had little holes at the base of the body, and when ignited these operated to spray fire and smoke out like a big firework.

The rounds went into the Barry Buddon turf, and likely were buried at the point that the stream of fireworks were at grass level. Result was a platoon of recruits were pulled off the rifle range nearby to help our class beat out grass fires that had started in the turf. We then had to fill up a couple of water trailers and tow these behind land rovers to soak the area in order to get the pockets of smouldering embers deep in the turf. In subsequent recruit courses, they simply fired off a few illuminating rounds in daytime since those were burned out above ground.

Same happened when on the ranges at Vogelsang in the hot summer a year or 2 later (76?) - but it was either tracers or the falling stream of hot cartridges from some Westland Scout helicopters firing GPMGs. Same drill of a platoon of guys with beater poles for a couple of hours, then towed water trailers to soak off the smouldering turf.

Cheers
Andy

[Marek_Tucan]

Originally Posted by chuckfourth

How long would that take to get behind the smoke, 10 seconds maybe 20 how long are the turns 3 minutes or more?

Forgetting the time needed to spot danger and to react. And, if the tank is moving, to stop it and go to reverse or "dime turn" - try doing that at full speed and you'd throw the track. I suspect first crew reaction would not be dropping smoke but trying to suppress the AT gun or "sprint" to cover. Kinda like that famous Polish "cavalry charge against tanks" - it was not a charge, but a retreat, the Poles knew well that they have to get ASAP into forest and shortest route went through the Panzers. They knew if they tried to turn back (away from the tanks) they'd get slaughtered doing so as they'd have to slow and begin turning in full view of the enemy.
Same applies for tanks, turning on dime is nice but it still shows nicely thin side armour (in fact with later PzIII's the thinnest place).
As for the smoke itself, would be pretty limited and might even be more detrimental to the tank than to the enemy, after all the ATG crew may fire blindly through, if they're quick enough the tank is still somewhere there and the ATG position is fixed, whereas tank crew loses any clue on enemy position the moment it backs into the smoke.
By the way, try not to exaggerate, I have yet to see a tank in SP having to withstand "hundreds" of AT gun rounds. That is if you do not leave Tiger sitting with disabled weapons in front of company of 37mm popguns. If your tanks have to suffer hundreds of rounds fired at them, there is some serious flaw in your setup and no amount of smoke dischargers will mend it