Getting AAA to fire

[Imp]

Second: SPAA - this AAA is basically only good for very close in a/c attacks, within 8-10 hexes of the target maximum. In my experience it only engages a/c within 5 hexes. So ensure one unit is always stationary near the target (best not to have moved the turn before also) while the other is moving up to the next position; think over watch

From experience I think this is wrong perhaps another explanation
1) AA needs a LOS to fire & like other guns may well not fire if its hit chance is to low saving shots for a better target.
2) If the gun already has a better target i.e. fired at ground unit & has a "lock" it is even less likely to fire.
3) If it moves to hit chance goes down
4) Mobile & static guns both use same rules so if had identical stats both would react to a given situation the same.

So what should you look for in AA gun for it to engage.
To engage initaly experience helps plus a good range finder, range & gun accuracy.
To continue engaging good fire control & ROF help as additional shots at same target have a chance to climb to a higher to hit chance.

Range has an effect I think as the shorter the range the quicker the accuracy & damage fall off.
An AA gun would need a reasonably good RF (think post WW2) to fire at max range.

As far as I know it therefore follows exatly the same rules as any ground gun.
A WW2 tank with a range of 100 will never engage another unit at that range.
A modern era tank with improved FC RF will if its chance to hit is now high enough.
Probably other factors involved like still might not take because can't kill but I do not want to know the exact mechanics involved I prefer to just play & observe.

The one diffrence Betwwen AA & normal ground guns is they will not tend to op fire at troops as it is not their primary role.

Hope this helps & like I say it is just my observation of how the game works, might be wrong but seems to work okay in practice

[RERomine]

Here are some cold, hard numbers related to the US 40mm AA gun in some tests I ran in the game.

To begin with, the terrain was completely clear ground. Testing took place on a 100x100 map with visibility set to 80. The variables controlled were the experience of the AA unit and the target. Test conditions had four US 40mm AA guns set up to to engage the target coming in on a straight east-west approach. There were four test scenarios with 20 passes in each condition:

1. US experience 70, target Ju88P-2(size 5, speed 5).

Average engagement range: 10.9
Maximum engagement range: 15
Minimum engagement range: 7

2. US experience 70, target Fw190A-8(size 3, speed 8).

Average engagement range: 4.9
Maximum engagement range: 11
Minimum engagement range: 0

3. US experience 120, target Ju88P-2(size 5, speed 5).

Average engagement range: 17.7
Maximum engagement range: 20
Minimum engagement range: 8

4. US experience 120, target Fw190A-8(size 3, speed 8).

Average engagement range: 15.0
Maximum engagement range: 20
Minimum engagement range: 0

One general note is that only engagements of an incoming plane were counted. The objective of AAA is to protect friendly forces from enemy aircraft. If the enemy plane succeeds in dropping it's load, the gun has failed this mission.

Another note is only one pass was made on a given turn. No attempt was made to overwhelm the AA defense.

While the target hex was the same in each test, it was not spotted. As such, the target plane would sometimes deviate it's path three hexes north or south of the expected path to engage one of the AA units instead of the target in the hex. The target was the infantry HQ unit.

Here is some basic information I got out of these tests:

1. At no point did the AA guns engage a target beyond 20 hexes. There were four guns and a total of 80 air strikes, so for 320 possible instances, the range 46 US 40mm AA guns did not engage past 20 hexes.
2. Experience is a factor. This wasn't unexpected. At experience 70, the maximum range of an engagement was 15 and that happened once out of 160 possibilities. When experience was increased to 120, engagements at 20 hexes became more frequent. Experience could be a significant factor in single battle PBEM games where national average is used.
3. Speed/size of target is a factor. Again, this wasn't unexpected. When AA experience was 120, they failed to engage the Fw190 on two passes. At AA experience of 70, they failed to engage the Fw190 on 10 passes. In all cases, the Ju88 was attacked.

If anyone has any questions about this testing, let me know.

[Imp]

Intresting read Ray, about what I would have expected though Fw-190 surprised me a bit.
Never buy that gun so it must be a low quality AA Gun.
As in poor accuracy & fire control.
From memory & varies by nation can get accuracy around low 20s & RF of 4 or 5 for a few points more. These will I think engage at longer range

[iCaMpWiThAWP]

So according to RERomine's tests, i should pick the fastest and smallest possible A/C for attack runs?

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by Imp

Intresting read Ray, about what I would have expected though Fw-190 surprised me a bit.
Never buy that gun so it must be a low quality AA Gun.
As in poor accuracy & fire control.
From memory & varies by nation can get accuracy around low 20s & RF of 4 or 5 for a few points more. These will I think engage at longer range

Statistically, it is identical to the Bofors, even if it isn't called one. Guns with higher accuracy, such as the 50 Quad, should expect better hit results, but having a smaller warhead less will come from each hit.

I did run some more abbreviated tests using the US 50 Quad and the German 2cm and 3.7cm guns. They weren't as extensive as the the testing with US 40mm AA gun, but those guns still did not engage beyond 20 hexes. With all of these guns, range isn't any more than 46 hexes. I should test the Russian 37mm as it has a range of 55 hexes. What I expected was maximum engagement range to be somewhere around half of the maximum range of the gun and not a wall of 20 hexes. If the Russian 37mm gun doesn't get past 20 hexes, I would conclude there is a code limitation that prevents engagements beyond that.

[RERomine]

Originally Posted by iCaMpWiThAWP

So according to RERomine's tests, i should pick the fastest and smallest possible A/C for attack runs?

Well, based on the tests, I would pick a Fw190 over a Ju88. Beyond that, I don't want to draw too many conclusions.

Andy mentioned that AA guns won't fire unless they have a minimum percentage chance to hit. Both the size and the speed of the target influence that ability. Specifically, higher speed and smaller size targets should be more difficult to hit.

[Imp]

So according to RERomine's tests, i should pick the fastest and smallest possible A/C for attack runs?

Thought that was a given, choose the weapons you want then small fast planes for survivability.
As I said if it works for ground units it works for air to including spotters.
Diffrence is if you want real survivability in WW2 go for level bombers as need big AA guns to engage. Long call time though.

[RERomine]

Additional testing, using a Russian 37mm AA gun at experience 120, doubling rate of fire and doubling the warhead size would not permit the gun to engage targets beyond 20 hexes. I suspect fire control plays a factor in engagement range when used in AA mode and light guns during WW2 were limited in this area.

[RERomine]

The basic answer is engagement range is effected by the obvious: fire control and range finder. During WW2, light AA guns were controlled manually and aimed generally through open type sights. Don't expect a lot out of light AA guns. At least they are cheap

[PanzerBob]

Food for thought.

If there is a limitation, it maybe due the MAX Ranges for any of the AAA only takes into account range across the ground as a surface weapon.

Airstrikes and AAA firing at them are using the limited part of the programming which very simply simulates airpower in the game. We don't really know what the aircraft is doing on its strike run except its ingress and egress routes. Again for AAA the same applies, it is shooting into the sky, I wouldn't expect a piece with 3000 meter range over ground to be able to reach out to 3000 meters in the sky over ground. Remember one reason 88's and other Heavy AA Pieces made great and good ATG's was their design to be able to push their FLAK loads high into the sky over their positions, I dare say those guns didn't range too far from their positions in their Flak Roles either. Just another reason even the big guns tended to be mobile, as their locations would be easy to hit otherwise.

Personally the game does a fair job of simulating CAS and Level Airstrikes and the defence against them. Nothing more annoying than an airstrike against the US when everybody and their brother has AA 50cal's and fill the sky with lead. The more metal in the air the more likely you will hit the JABO SOB or convince him this is not a healthy place to be.

Bottom-line if you expect airstrikes recruit as much AAA as you can practically include and keep them close to likely targets.

Gotta love this game!!


Bob out