MP: Apotheosis [Running]

[Amadamus]

i think 11 players is a fair number for this map and gives a decent opportunity of everyone getting a reasonable start... so my vote would say full - sorry SplendidTuesday

[Finalgenesis]

Playing the devil's advocate:

Lands: 199 land + 22 sea (3 are landlocked, so 19 for UW nations)
players: 9 land + 2 sea

Average: 22 land province per land nation, 9.5 sea province for sea nation

I would love to see another land player ;-)

[Amadamus]

Originally Posted by Finalgenesis

Playing the devil's advocate:

Lands: 199 land + 22 sea (3 are landlocked, so 19 for UW nations)
players: 9 land + 2 sea

Average: 22 land province per land nation, 9.5 sea province for sea nation

I would love to see another land player ;-)

Yes, but look at the map - there are vast areas of wasteland and low pop provinces.

Anyway, what land nation is going into the water early? The water nations get it all to themselves. The land provinces will be contested by many more players.

The map designer says the map is good for 8-10 players... why go 12?

[Finalgenesis]

Originally Posted by Amadamus

Yes, but look at the map - there are vast areas of wasteland and low pop provinces.

Anyway, what land nation is going into the water early? The water nations get it all to themselves. The land provinces will be contested by many more players.

The map designer says the map is good for 8-10 players... why go 12?

Ah ah, but ocean isn't exactly high pop either, not to mention the city province and the 2-3x more gem income, in fact waste gives much higher chance of gem income.

Also we are getting ocean to ourselves yeah, oceania + R'yleth, you make it sound like an advantage to start in a deathmatch arena 1v1. Not early killing the other UW nation isn't doable as our 9.5 province will kill us in the mid-long run compared to a 22 avg province gold and gem income of your average land nation.

CBM makes water entry easier, and we'll on average be bordered on by many more teams then an average land nation will be with the water smack in the middle. Yes water is a barrier, but not so much as it'd be in vanilla, together with the fact that us UW nations will on average be much weaker and shaky NAP at best. I won't go into the multiple likely scenarios during mid and late game.

Now make no mistake, I actually love a tight spot and in fact I knew all this before I picked R'yleth, it makes for a tougher exciting game and I deliberately picked a 2nd UW due to this (and my love for R'yleth of course!). Diplomacy is gonna be real interesting for this one But to suggest that the above situation is an advantage...

Either way I'm fine with 11 or 12 player, one extra nation won't make a difference to me. The designer suggested 8-10, I don't see why we go 11, or 12, or why the suggested limit matters at all?

[13lackGu4rd]

Verjigorm, nice propaganda about Ashdod. pulling off stats when commonly banned nations are involved is pure propaganda in my book. for a relatively experienced players such as yourself to be wanting to play Ashdod is nothing short of hypocrisy Imho, especially when this game is generally newbie friendly, not an expert's game. P.S Pythium isn't the strongest MA nation barring Ashdod, Jotunheim is probably stronger, and a few other nations are certainly up there with them. MA is probably the most balanced era of all 3 due to the lack of real blood nations and ridiculous blesses(still possible of course but EA dominates MA in that regard).

Finalgenesis, starting in a death match isn't as bad as you make it sound. it's kill or be killed for Oceania/R'lyeh but whoever wins gains a massive advantage. a much larger advantage than a land nation gets for rushing and destroying another land nation.

oh yeah and if you really don't want a death match you can avoid it, both Oceania and R'lyeh can enter the land pretty well, and in CBM Amulet of the Fish only requires W1 which all water nations have access to, so bringing aquatic commanders(say thugs, mages, etc) onto land is easy. aquatic troops are more problematic, but both R'lyeh and Oceania have a good selection of amphibious troops, so that isn't a problem either...

also water nations have a massive edge as far as gem economy goes, thanks to Voice of Tiamat which is a staple for any UW nation. makes your gem income sky rocket much faster than land nations, and with all the oceans to yourself(if you got into the death match and won) you maintain a massive lead.

oh yeah, and while in CBM entering the water isn't as hard as it used to be for land nations, they still suffer from the poor amphibian trait and of course from research paths that are useful above the seas for not below them(most of the Evocation line for example).

yes being UW also has its disadvantages, but it's not as black as you're trying to make it seem, I've simply showed a lot of the white to counter your blackness. the truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle...



so anyway, are we decided on CBM+EGD? and I must strongly encourage you to ban Ashdod, and especially not let a relatively experienced player as Verjigorm take it... if you insist on not banning them than give them to a first timer in MP or something, otherwise ban. it's sad that Verjigorm's propaganda worked on you so well, congratulations Verjigorm. but for me, now I know more who I'm dealing with(or well, against) and I'll keep that in mind for the future, your reputation already precedes you, this is just a small addition

and 1 last thing for this long post, diplomacy. binding diplomacy is a nice concept, but in the end if someone breaks a diplomatic agreement there's not much you can do about it to enforce this rule besides stopping the game or some other ridiculously extreme move. now, this concept works in games where people know each other and have a certain degree of trust, such as the Gentleman's game that was around(not sure if it's finished yet or not). here we obviously don't know each other that much, and all these talks on good faith clauses and whatnot says a lot about the level of trust between the players in this game, almost non existent, as is expected with unknowns...

otherwise Machiavellian is the default because there's no need for unnecessary enforcement. however even in Machiavellian diplomacy, people who break NAPs are hurting their reputation, and others will know not to trust them in future games, so there's always a trade off. now, there are games that specifically encourage backstabbing, so in those it's more acceptable to well, backstab, but in normal Machiavellian games there's still a pretty large incentive to keep up to your word.

[SplendidTuesday]

If Greyjoy's friend doesn't show up, may I take his spot?

Otherwise, I'm fine with this being full.

[Amadamus]

Originally Posted by Finalgenesis

Ah ah, but ocean isn't exactly high pop either, not to mention the city province and the 2-3x more gem income, in fact waste gives much higher chance of gem income.

Also we are getting ocean to ourselves yeah, oceania + R'yleth, you make it sound like an advantage to start in a deathmatch arena 1v1. Not early killing the other UW nation isn't doable as our 9.5 province will kill us in the mid-long run compared to a 22 avg province gold and gem income of your average land nation.

CBM makes water entry easier, and we'll on average be bordered on by many more teams then an average land nation will be with the water smack in the middle. Yes water is a barrier, but not so much as it'd be in vanilla, together with the fact that us UW nations will on average be much weaker and shaky NAP at best. I won't go into the multiple likely scenarios during mid and late game.

Now make no mistake, I actually love a tight spot and in fact I knew all this before I picked R'yleth, it makes for a tougher exciting game and I deliberately picked a 2nd UW due to this (and my love for R'yleth of course!). Diplomacy is gonna be real interesting for this one But to suggest that the above situation is an advantage...

Either way I'm fine with 11 or 12 player, one extra nation won't make a difference to me. The designer suggested 8-10, I don't see why we go 11, or 12, or why the suggested limit matters at all?

Either of the water nations will rush the other resulting in a nice inaccessible domain for the winner. If you think a land nation is going to be gearing up for an initial assault into the water you are dreaming. Who in their right mind is going to go into the sea when there are hostiles on land to contend with first?

And the limit matters because it gives all starters a shot at making it to the mid game. Why even bother playing if there is a possibility due to a lack of good capital sites that several of your neighbouring provinces have no resources and < 2000 pop?

The game was advertised as an MA romp with 10 players on the Cradle map. I signed up for that... Now its 11 well ok, but not 12 - not on this map. Someone will end up with a crap start which is unnecessary if the nation limit is observed.

[Amadamus]

Actually, I think Kadelake should make the call - democracy is rubbish for getting things done.

[Finalgenesis]

Yeah one of the things with these MP games is that the players stays around after the game ends, which means rep matters and being too evil will haunt you in the long term. Of course, "if you can't enforce it then don't make it a rule" is always a good, when I say good faith non-binding, I guess the good faith part is unneeded and a bit misleading, let actual repercussions do the talking!

The way I see the UW deathmatch situation is that I don't see neither side rolling up the other quickly unless they get some horrendous luck, and likely the ocean won't be unified until midgame or so at the earliest, thats a lot of turns where you have you are locked in mortal combat with an inherent lower income / gem and thereby research. Even assuming all land nations are fighting it out in death matches, they are doing so with avg 22 provinces apiece.

I would conjecture also that there is a lot of interest from land not to see ocean unified and thereby intervene (god knows I would if I see 2 wounded small fish duking it out) , though only experience can tell, maybe they'll be more preoccupied with Ashod's power or something. Another thing is if you own the whole ocean (or just half for that matter), your looking at bordering 6-8 nations from as the water province placement, though this admittedly could be an advantage (a tough one), whereas an average sized land nation will likely border 3-4 nations or so, with a larger income and potential gem generation.

Getting to land without securing the ocean seems unfeastible to me, land nations will want to kick you in and the other UW nation will make you regret diverting too resource shore side.

Now as a disclaimer, all these things I've laid out are partly to serve as a backdrop for my diplomacy effort in-game (I'm poor, weak and locked in mortal combat, you can drop your guard around me! ), and I've certainly thought out some strategies suited for my situation. In fact, I derive a lot of enjoyment from doing analysis and work out various scenarios and their strategies, the bleaker it seems the more fun it is to plan and survive, so Blackguard stop popping my bubble of black I just hope I get to the late game at this point!

[13lackGu4rd]

I'm popping your bubble because you're already using your own propaganda before the game even begun, and are trying to use it to affect pregame decisions(such as the number of players in the game).

now, propaganda aside, you chose to be an UW nation, you know what you get from it. don't try to squeeze hidden advantages from game settings due to playing what you chose to play...