Adamant Mod Discussion Thread

[Aiken]

FYI

Magic/max tech (for example):
=============================
Base 1000 kt +AC5
2000/5000/4000 - 960 kt free
+ 2 RL3 = 5200/5000/4000
-----------------------------
Base 3000 kt + AC5
4000/13000/4000 - 2960 kt free
+ 7RL3 = 15200/13000/4000
-----------------------------
Base 5000 kt +AC5
6000/21000/4000 - 4960 kt free
+ 12 RL3 = 25200/21000/4000
-----------------------------

Large HW (12B/12B) + SC3 = 5250/*/*/turn
========================================
Base 1000 kt:
Empty: 1 turn
+ 2 RL3: 1 turn
-------------------------
Base 3000 kt:
Empty: 3 turn
+ 7 RL3: 3 turn
-------------------------
Base 5000 kt:
Empty: 4 turn
+ 12 RL3: 5 turn
-------------------------
\* AC5 - Autonomous Costruct V
\* RL3 - Research Lab III

So as you see, in this case building time for RLs (apart from bases) is 0 (+1 turn for 5000 kt base) which is wrong in my opinion.
In Last case you get 4800 research in 5 turns, which is far better that 5 Research Labs V (2500) without system improvements and racial modifiers, and this is wrong too. Imho, orbital research shouldn't be so much superiour compared to planetary labs.
These weird calculations are made for full-tech case, but I belive they're true for other ingame situations.

My humble suggestion is:

Name := Research Lab I
Description := High-Tech space-borne researching facility which develops new technology for a society.
Pic Num := 885
Tonnage Space Taken := 400
Tonnage Structure := 200
Cost Minerals := 1600
Cost Organics := 1600
Cost Radioactives := 1600
Vehicle Type := Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := Five Per Ship
General Group := Research
Family := 7216
Roman Numeral := 1
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Applied Research
Tech Level Req 1 := 1
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Generate Points Research
Ability 1 Descr := Generates 200 research points each turn, unmodified by racial traits.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 200
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

*duh*

Name := Research Lab V
Description := High-Tech space-borne researching facility which develops new technology for a society.
Pic Num := 885
Tonnage Space Taken := 800
Tonnage Structure := 200
Cost Minerals := 1600
Cost Organics := 1600
Cost Radioactives := 1600
Vehicle Type := Base
Supply Amount Used := 0
Restrictions := None (or Ten Per Ship - restriction amount is increasing with comp advancement)
General Group := Research
Family := 7216
Roman Numeral := 5
Custom Group := 0
Number of Tech Req := 1
Tech Area Req 1 := Applied Research
Tech Level Req 1 := 5
Number of Abilities := 1
Ability 1 Type := Generate Points Research
Ability 1 Descr := Generates 400 research points each turn, unmodified by racial traits.
Ability 1 Val 1 := 400
Ability 1 Val 2 := 0
Weapon Type := None

edit: typos, typos...

[ August 06, 2004, 11:30: Message edited by: aiken ]

[Atrocities]

Man I have to say that for the first time in the history of my time with SEIV, I am lost. I am utterly completely and totally lost. I guess it is the side effect of being to tired to realy be able to comprehend what it is you just posted. Or it could just be that it is 4:26 am on 8-04, and all the numbers you just posted coupled with my numbers, and I just messed me right the hell up.

Something really needs to be done about this "Just One More Click" addiction that comes with SE IV. Seriously.

[Gandalf Parker]

Originally posted by Atrocities:
Something really needs to be done about this "Just One More Click" addiction that comes with SE IV. Seriously.

A warning label for the demo?

WARNING: this game is NOT suitable for students, interns, apprentices, or anyone else who is expected to pass tests on a regular basis. Do not think about SEIV strategys while operating heavy machinery. Do not begin learning SEIV without first making arrangments for someone to check on you daily. If you find that your game has continued for more than 36 hours straight then you should consult a physician immeadiately (Do NOT show him the game!)

[JLS]

Originally posted by aiken:
Imho, orbital research shouldn't be so much superiour compared to planetary labs.
These weird calculations are made for full-tech case, but I belive they're true for other ingame situations.

My humble suggestion is:

Agreed Aiken.

Out of the options of Fyrons earlier post with “research from resource expenditure” - I also chose the most costly (1 from 4); however, from 12+ is wise indeed.


We need to look for the possibilities of Tech-ing out before the game is even near completion - if research returns are too great. Moreover, will the need then arise to compensate with mundane and/or even more over redundant techs to fill excessive research accumulations.

I have no doubts in Fyrons creativity for fresh and crisp new Tech generations so *more* may be very interesting

[ August 06, 2004, 16:31: Message edited by: JLS ]

[Fyron]

Like research facilities, I would prefer to keep them costing only the primary resource. Also, I don't want them to be variable size with tech level (certainly not increasing), as that makes upgrading designs a hassle. I could make them cost 3200 minerals. That would both increase the build time and halve the research they make per resource...

Also, keep in mind that using them on larger bases is not really much more efficient, as you spend about the same amount of resources on Command & Control components per kiloton of base anyways.

[Aiken]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:
Like research facilities, I would prefer to keep them costing only the primary resource.

Then don't forget that Magical and Physical bases require more organics than minerals (and 0 rads) while Organic bases require more minerals than organics (and 0 rads still).
According to this, Magical and Physical RLs should cost 3200 minerals, but Organic RLs should cost 3200 organics.

Also, keep in mind that using them on larger bases is not really much more efficient, as you spend about the same amount of resources on Command & Control components per kiloton of base anyways.

Sure, unless you're using master computers on really big bases - then it's significantly more profitable and effective.

And you still should consider limitation of RL's number per base: 2 massive bases filled with RLs have same research income as fully developed large scientifical planet (1 SY + 19 RC V). It's a research cheat, imho.

[Fyron]

Then don't forget that Magical and Physical bases require more organics than minerals (and 0 rads) while Organic bases require more minerals than organics (and 0 rads still).
According to this, Magical and Physical RLs should cost 3200 minerals, but Organic RLs should cost 3200 organics.

Magic races have secondary resource costs more evenly distributed between minerals and organics accross the board than physical and organic races do (for their secondary resources). That 4000 minerals doesn't make much of a difference overall for the huge magic base...

Sure, unless you're using master computers on really big bases - then it's significantly more profitable and effective.

I was comparing different sized bases...

And you still should consider limitation of RL's number per base: 2 massive bases filled with RLs have same research income as fully developed large scientifical planet (1 SY + 19 RC V). It's a research cheat, imho.

And cost around 10000 resources (or more) per turn to maintain, each. So that is basically changing a fully developed resource planet into a fully developed research planet... Also, it costs about the same to build a large number of smaller bases to generate the same amount of research...

[ August 06, 2004, 17:30: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Aiken]

Sorry, I'm especially dumb today, but anyway I can't understand a sense of this:

18. Fixed - Entertainment Networks and Temple Districts now have negative Planet - Change Population Happiness abilities instead of positive ones, so they no longer increase anger, but instead decrease it.

Do system and planet happiness modifiers work different?

[Fyron]

Originally posted by aiken:
Do system and planet happiness modifiers work different?

Yes. System happiness can not take a negative value. Positive decreases anger levels, thus increases happiness. For planet happiness ability, a postive amount increases anger every turn, thus decreases happiness. A negative amount decreases anger every turn, thus increases happiness. It is just like Happiness.txt values. Note that the game stores an anger level variable, not a happiness level. The planet happiness ability functions identically to the Happiness.txt file, whereas the system happiness ability is backwards.

Do you still think research labs are too productive, given their maintenance costs?

[ August 06, 2004, 17:57: Message edited by: Imperator Fyron ]

[Aiken]

Originally posted by Imperator Fyron:

quote:

---

Sure, unless you're using master computers on really big bases - then it's significantly more profitable and effective.

I was comparing different sized bases...

Small Astral Base + 1B+5LS+2CQ+2RL: 7850/4675/700 + 400 research
Massive Astral Base + 1 AC + 12 RL: 38400/21000/4000 + 4800 research
-------------------------------------
MassiveBase/SmallBase = 4.89/4.49/5.71 + x6 research. It's always (well most time) more profitable to have big freaking base than small.

And you still should consider limitation of RL's number per base: 2 massive bases filled with RLs have same research income as fully developed large scientifical planet (1 SY + 19 RC V). It's a research cheat, imho.

And cost around 10000 resources (or more) per turn to maintain, each. So that is basically changing a fully developed resource planet into a fully developed research planet... Also, it costs about the same to build a large number of smaller bases to generate the same amount of research... [/qb]

---

Maintanence for hi-tech Massive Base is about 5000/2700/500 per turn (cost 38400/21000/4000 and 13% maint.). So 10000 maintanence is for 2 bases. Then, large hi-tech mining planet can generate 24700 minerals per turn (19 mineral extractors IX) => it can support 4 massive research base (9600 research). Large planet with 19 RC V can generate 9500 research per turn. Well, seems about equal
It's means that orbital research is a viable alternative to planet-based research! Now it will possible to reduce Intelligence to 50 for 2100 free RP, hmm. Do you think it worths to try?

[ August 06, 2004, 18:14: Message edited by: aiken ]