Guide: Bandar Log - you whipped me with what?!?

[konming]

Since Kristoffer is here, I cannot resist to ask why Brahmin and Yogi have a moral of 7? Is it an oversight or intentional?

[Sombre]

Perhaps it is because they are pacifists?

[Baalz]

Well, I think I've been clear on why I think can be powerful.

1) They've got access to powerful (3+ level) mages in astral, nature, earth, water, and air, leaving only death, blood and fire which take some work. They've got good/great national summons in death & blood, so a little effort in diversifying goes a long way. This leaves them really only 'weak' in fire, which is arguably the least useful path. Head of the class in diversity.

2) Some of the best non-unique thug/SCs in the game at fairly cheap prices. For 25-35 each they get a wide variety of guys who are not only good thugs, but also powerful combat and forging mages. On the high end you can field almost 3 Rudra for each GOR'ed Seraph, and all your guys are sacred.

3) Very good non-commander summons ranging from cheap ethereal chaff to uber heavy infantry.

4) Lots of 'special forces' type recruits, from knight slaying Markatas to stealth archers to stick and stone flinging Bandars to elephants (who can be great even into late game if your opponent wasn't expecting them).

5) Your most expensive (and best) stuff all costs pearls so alchemizing from anything is an option most of the game. Most of your stuff can still be cost effective at twice the cost in an off gem.

Ways in which Bandar can struggle

1) No single easily accessible 'use almost anywhere' unit. You can't crank out your 'best' unit, confident they'll get put to good use against most any opponent.

2) Lots of expensive options, lost of chances to waste money and gems on suboptimal choices. From summoning a hundred gandaharvas to massing thirty elephants to fielding a swarm of Bandar longbows, you've got a whole lot of opportunities to waste a whole lot of resources on expensive things. As I was discussing above you have to be willing to use the Apsaras if you can get away with it, even if you could summon gandaharvas at the moment. You have to be willing to turn back those F/W vans using markatas rather than spending 4 times as much on Bandar troops.

3) Several "gotcha" weaknesses from generally low moral to having the animal flag to having map move one recruitable mages to having only H1 priests. The reason I describe them as that is because none of them are crippling...until you forgot about it the turn it mattered.

[edit after thinking for a moment and AoE's comment]
4) Several "necessary" things that you really need to spend your gems on. Compounds the expensive options problem. If you can't clear a minimum hurdle for gem expenditure you're pretty much hosed.

Basically, Bandar gives you a whole lot of chances to shoot yourself in the foot. Played by a very experience player I think they'll fairly consistently do pretty well - even against opponents of equal skill. Played by even a moderately experience player I think they're pretty much always going to struggle to be competitive.

[AreaOfEffect]

I don't think anyone has yet criticized Bandar Log's magic power from their regular commanders. The chassis itself for the guru is the only thing I've noticed anyone having a problem with. Admittedly, 2 AP is rather slow, even for a guy with his legs crossed.

Astral and nature are both very strong paths. However, I think that Bandar Log lacks a great deal of magic diversity outside of their summons. Magic diversity is in my opinion the true hallmark of magical power. Outside of astral and nature Bandar Log can, at best, get 2 water, 2 earth, or 1 earth and 1 water. But don't hold your breath as that all involves a 10% random. Most likely you'll get only 1 water or 1 earth half of the time. What is worse is that it can only occur your capital only mage. Even getting 2 nature is limited to only the Rishi.

With such limitations on magic diversity and the availability of your powerful caster, the fact that BL is an astral and nature faction is very much mitigated. It is most likely why Baalz came to the conclusion that using their summons wasn't just good, but necessary.

[Kristoffer O]

Originally Posted by Sombre

Perhaps it is because they are pacifists?

It's because they are cowards

[Amhazair]

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

It's because they are cowards

That actually makes a lot of sense.

Originally Posted by Baalz

5) Your most expensive (and best) stuff all costs pearls so alchemizing from anything is an option most of the game. Most of your stuff can still be cost effective at twice the cost in an off gem.

I'm not sure I see this as an advantage. I do see your point about the ease of alchemisation, but still... I'm not sure.

As an astral nation I always confortably manage to use up all the pearls I can lay my hands on, and then some, on astral boosters, penetration boosters, banners of the northern star, mind hunts, and battlefield gem use alone. (Not to mention any MR/luck equipment you might also want to forge) What has always put me off about Bandar Log, but also Pythium and Marignon, is that on top of all that, you also have to use those same precious gems for your summons.

I've yet to play any of those nations, so I can't really give an informed opinion, but that has always been the thing that struck me about them, how to get hold of enough pearls. I am now involved in a MP with LA Marignon, but am just now entering the mid game, and they also have the various blood summons to help out and mitigate the problem. We'll see how it goes.

[Epaminondas]

Omnirizon's post was well-written and entertaining, but I'd have to conclude that it lacks substance.

[Epaminondas]

Originally Posted by konming

After playing my first ever Bandar game (SP or MP), I must say they have potential but serious weakness.

Typically Bandars are played with either good bless or good scale. Good bless is much weaker for Bandar than for Kailasa, since Bandar's sacred is not nearly as powerful as Kailasa. While Kailasa's sacred has some obvious weakness, it can be mitigated with bless. I have not seen anyone pointing out a great way to bless white ones. Sure with the right bless they smash indies quick, but elephants are just as quick against indies. Against decent human player, who uses arrows, low level evocations,heavily armored troops and so on, they are at disadvantage against most of the middle age nations.

Now about their mages. First, many of their summoned mages cost money to maintain. This is bad after paying 20N, you now have to pay 12G per month for a mage. Second, summons are less numerous than recruits. Can you get as many Yakasha as in Kailasa? And nature gems have many great use, like GOR and GOH. So if you use all your nature gems on summons, you lose out in other important area. Third, all their mages require lab+temple to recruit, wasting lots of money plus valuable time on your summoned mages, since none of your recruited mages is priest.

And there is their PD. Even backed up by Yakasha casting destruction (shouldn't he have better things to do?), 20 PD would be hard pressed to stop a similar cost invasion force. Against small raiding forces, esp. stealth ones, you have pratically no way to counter.

Then there is this ridiculous animal tag on all their troops and commanders. For god's sake, how can an almost transcend rishi be an animal where lowly peasants are "human"? In game term, it make sieging and defending against siege pointless for Bandar. You better recruit a lot of indies if you want to take any castle. And what happened to yogi's 7 morale? Even indy militias are better motivated. Oh, and what's the reason for guru's 2 combat movement? Since only immobile units (like a fountain) has combat movement of 2, are gurus made of stone?

Bandar do have potential in their summon department. But relying only on summon against others who can both recruit powerful mages and troops as well as summon, will not get you very far.

Well-put. You've touched on all my concerns, and then some.

[Omnirizon]

Kuritza:

the reason BL is better suited to use Siddhas and Gandharvas and other mid to late game summons is because they aren't limited in their possible blesses like Kailasa. Thus, they can choose a bless and pretender design that optimizes these mid and late game tools. It is their slightly more conventional line up of initial units that allows them to do this, yet it is that same line up that lulls people into thinking that BL can be played more conventionally than Kailasa; nothing is further from the truth. BL is more of a summoning nation than Kail, and this isn't something people recognize simply because Kail _looks_ more Conjuration and Celestial oriented. It is Kail's initial availabitity of Celestials that makes them less optimized to use the later Celestial summons (because they _must_ make pretenders that makes these initial units viable, and these designs will not optimize the mid and late game Celestials). Thus Kail is much less Conjuration and more Evo and Alt oriented.


Also, as KO points out, Astral and Nature (I would say especially Astral) is so powerful for late game, so much so that people often exclaim a nation that lacks it is completely crippled. BL is very powerful in this area, to the extent that I don't think they even need a lot of magic outside of astral. Thus why the fact that efficient alchemy is a real boon for them. And this is just another unconventional resource of BL that people discount right out of hand, due to common experience with other nations. BL is a completely different animal (so is Kailasa for that matter).

On a similar note, BL HAS the mid-late game tools in spades. And a lot of their weaknesses that Konming picks up on are moot in late game. PD? Irrelevant. And who by late game is using standard troops for anything but support? And Konming's point about the bless being less important is wrong, and is the kernel of what I'm claiming is the reason people fail with BL. Even their recruitable sacreds are only support to their summoned ones. And their summoned ones are more powerful than Kail's recruited ones, and BL can take a bless that optimizes that; while Kail cannot. And mid game is a turning point, and by late game standard units are almost unimportant. So in that sense BL has stronger sacreds than Kail. --This is why BL is more of a summoning nation that Kail, this is why BL is better situated to use Siddhas, Gandharvas, even Yaksha (even if they must summon them) than Kail.-- People's failure to pick up on this is the reason BL has no victories. Of all the ages (Kail/BL/Patala) BL has the most summoning options. And a sufficient even if lackluster line up of standard units allows them enough flexibility to use them (aka, they don't have to play to a particular weakness or idiosyncrasy in their standard units).

It is hyperbole to say this, but it will help you get the idea:
Bandar Log is like a more colorful Ermor with Astral... and elephants.


PS.
Also, reading through Baalz's guide, he REALLY gets at the point of BL being a nation who's challenge is management, not power. They have power, it is managing it that is the problem. He notes spot on that BL has a tool for everything, a weakness for everything, and in the same sense infinite ways to waste money. It is always about having JUST the right combination, and knowing what that combination is. BL has what it takes to win, does the player have what it takes to win is the question. People are used to playing in a way that there is one unit and one spell and one way of doing things. BL is not that nation. You have to read the situation, you have to play deliberately.

[Tifone]

Originally Posted by Kristoffer O

It's because they are cowards

Well, one would expect the years of meditation and self-annihilation into nirvana of Brahmins and Gurus, would greatly help to reduce the selfness and fear of death which lead to run away from enemies