Why Kailasa, Bandar Log, and Patala NEVER WIN

[Lord_Bob]

Since some people like being deliberately obtuse, I have decided to be clear.

The totally useless PD of these nations is why none of them have ever registered a single win in multi-player. The mages change, and troops are, of course, replacable, but none of these races has ever registered a win. NOT ONCE. Why?

Because for 230 gold, or less, you can create an "invincible raiding force" that will defeat any PD below 20. After 20 the one Bandar monkey per point makes things mildly more difficult, but not much. You'll probably need 10-20 more gold in archers per point to route all the little monkeys which will route the bandar(you don't ever have to fight the bandar, you just have to make sure they route quickly). That's it. Raid the hell out of them. Easy.

For reference, this is the pathetic Ape PD per point:
Some Markata "soldiers"(Morale 7, Melee Damage 8, yes 8, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
Some Markata "archers"(Morale 7, Bow Damage 6, yes 6, 0 protection, 5 hitpoints)
1/2 Per Point(YES THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT) Atavi "Soldier"(Morale 8, Protection 1)
1/2 Per Point(YES, AGAIN, THAT'S ONE EVERY OTHER POINT!) Atavi "Archer"(Morale 8, Protection 1)

I'm just wondering if it's intentional that PD prevent the monkeys, in any age, from winning. Ever.

Also, if you will notice, KissBlade, the only dedicated Patala Player, has built his entire nation around anti-raiding power. That is, he gets the Vampire Queen. This is the correct thing for KissBlade to do.

HOWEVER, IT IS PATHETIC THAT THE ENTIRE PRETENDER DESIGN BE DETERMINED BY WEAK PD.

[Lord_Bob]

I would like to emphasize that the Markata each count as much as the Atavi and the Bandar towards the 75% lost/routes and everyone routes rule. I would also like people to consider that the Markata have a morale of 7. With Dominion and "full strength" bonus that gives them an effective morale of 7 + 1 + 5 = 13. That means they have a 46% chance of routing on their first morale check.

When does their first morale check occur? Well, they have Protection 0, and 5 hitpoints. The Markata recieve their first morale check the first time they are hit with arrow fire, and every time after.

Because of their greater numbers, once the markata route the 75% rule is either achieved, or very close to achieved, and everyone routes. Game over.

I suspect if you played games you could beat 20 PD with 130 gold. If you had some tough Indy archers. However, I don't care to check, because it is obvious that a raiding group of LESS GOLD THAN THE PD COST can defeat the PD PROBABLY WITHOUT CASUALITIES.

[K]

The monkey PD is can one of the few that defeat a Black Hawk attack with only an investment of 1 gold.

The problem that most people have is that they don't realize that the monkeys get the best summons in the game. If you put a bunch of Gandarvas on the field with a good regen and maybe an Earth bless backed up by some of the Protection buffing spells you get(Wooden Warriors, Iron Warriors, Legions of Steel) and the MR buffs, and even the crazy buffs(ones that grant Luck, Etherealsness, or other powers), and you are unstoppable.

Combine basic magic with wicked troops, and you get armies that don't take losses from fights with armies. Only mages are to be feared, and even they don't do much.

[thejeff]

I'm no monkey or MP expert, but my understanding is PD is nothing more than a speed bump by mid game anyway. Sure it means you can use cheaper raiders, but those cheap raiding forces can be countered by not much more expensive patrols.
Buy a few archers or infantry to back them up.

How is the VQ an anti-raiding strategy. The VQ is a defensive strategy, sure, but I'll send 5 cheap raiders and she can kill one or take back one province a turn. That's not a plan...

In my last mp game against Bandar Log, they were definitely way ahead. Then the player had to drop and the game dissolved, so there was no official winner. I was Jotunheim and I could take any province I wanted, most only had 1 PD anyway. Then he'd annihilate and enslave whatever I'd sent.

It's an annoyance to have lousy PD. Particularly being vulnerable to cheap castings like Call of the Winds/Wild. But the sacreds, sacred summons and astral power can make up for it.

By late game, PD is unimportant. Casual thugs/raiders will take any reasonable PD untouched and a heavy PD investment will be bypassed or hit with a real army and die.

[Lord_Bob]

That's probably why none of these three nations has ever registered a win in multi-player.

You've made it very clear to me that being completely helpless before raiders is no real problem so long as you invest in defense as much as they invest in offense. And don't mind your provinces being continously overtaxed and captured.

But hey, by Late Game, none of this matters. Of course, gold doesn't really matter in Late Game either. So, do you take 3 Disorder and 3 Luck every game? Since Gold doesn't matter in Late Game, that seems like a strategy For The Win. You have an even bigger edge because all those idiots with multiple wins in MP are taking order! They are handicapping themselves by hundreds of points! You'll clean their clocks good!

[Sandman]

Bandar Log is a fairly good nation. The Markatas are okay chaff, and you can always mind hunt or teleport something nasty onto raiders.

[Lord_Bob]

Combine basic magic with wicked troops, and you get armies that don't take losses from fights with armies. Only mages are to be feared, and even they don't do much.

Your problem is that your aren't thinking on the same scale as I am. A mage comes from a castle with a lab. Probably a temple to. He probably costs more than 100 gold. The infrastructure cost is 1700 Gold, at least, and some serious money for the troops.

My "defeat any monkey PD" raiding force is built in a normal Indie province without castle, lab, or temple. It costs less than 200 gold for the whole thing, including commander, and probably can be built using the resources of the province in two turns. The infrastructure required is 0 Gold. 0 Gold. Let that sink in. 0 Gold. The total troop cost is under 200 gold. That is the cost of the single mage you have built. Just him. That's it. I can construct probably 11 of these raiding forces by the time you have your infrastructure set up and your first force built.

Obviously you can spam these raiding forces, quick and easy. If they hit 20 PD(cost 200 gold), they defeat it. Your opponent loses tax income for at least one turn, and you get it, I believe? That's 100 gold right there. Very nearly paying for the raiding force. By itself. Of course, you are also forcing your enemy to respond to your annoying attacks.

[Lord_Bob]

Bandar Log is a fairly good nation. The Markatas are okay chaff, and you can always mind hunt or teleport something nasty onto raiders.

I would like to emphasize that these forces are not "stealth" in any way and can very easily have an Astral Mage lying around. However, I wouldn't bother with that. Mind Hunt forces me, sob, to add another commander to the force. Total cost:230 gold. But if Bandar Log wants to use 4 astral pearls and 2 mage-turns, I'm sorry, 2 BOOSTED Mage-Turns in order to kill 230 gold, then I think he should. Or does it take 3 castings to kill two commanders? Well then, 6 Astral Pearls. I think that's great. Of course, if I get tired of this, I'll develop the nasty habit of teleporting high Astral Mages onto some raiding groups, thus hopefully feebleminding several extremely expensive mages.

[HJFudge]

One solution might be to keep him so busy responding to YOUR attacks and YOUR raids that he does not have the time to do this.

Oh. And people really should have more than one fort and a lab before this happens. Dont wait for the raiding forces to start coming BEFORE you invest in defense. Prepare for it ahead of time. Make your border provinces and chokepoints MORE than 20 PD by whatever amount you need to STOP such attacks.

If you wait till 11 raiding forces are coming in before you begin to make preperations to stop such attack dont cry cause really, its not the games fault you suck

[thejeff]

Nonsense. I never said gold doesn't matter. I never said lousy PD didn't suck. I just said the monkeys have some other advantages that can make up for it.
So you have to be more active on defense than some others, who can hide behind walls of PD.

But what do I know? They are completely useless nations and I've been trounced by them, so I must really suck anyway.
Listen to K, he's much better with them than I am. They probably just don't fit my playing style. Maybe they're not right for yours either?


There are ~30 nations listed in the Victorious Nations thread out of 60+. 3 nations not appearing is not statistically meaningful.
Lanka has won. Do they have the same PD?